Discussion:
Swiftboat liar Larry Thurlow outed by his own military record
(too old to reply)
Riddick
2004-08-19 10:52:41 UTC
Permalink
Records Counter A Critic Of Kerry
Fellow Skipper's Citation Refers To Enemy Fire

By Michael Dobbs
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, August 19, 2004; Page A01

Newly obtained military records of one of Sen. John F. Kerry's most
vocal critics, who has accused the Democratic presidential candidate
of lying about his wartime record to win medals, contradict his own
version of events.

In newspaper interviews and a best-selling book, Larry Thurlow, who
commanded a Navy Swift boat alongside Kerry in Vietnam, has strongly
disputed Kerry's claim that the Massachusetts Democrat's boat came
under fire during a mission in Viet Cong-controlled territory on March
13, 1969. Kerry won a Bronze Star for his actions that day.

But Thurlow's military records, portions of which were released
yesterday to The Washington Post under the Freedom of Information Act,
contain several references to "enemy small arms and automatic weapons
fire" directed at "all units" of the five-boat flotilla. Thurlow won
his own Bronze Star that day, and the citation praises him for
providing assistance to a damaged Swift boat "despite enemy bullets
flying about him."

As one of five Swift boat skippers who led the raid up the Bay Hap
River, Thurlow was a direct participant in the disputed events. He is
also a leading member of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, a public
advocacy group of Vietnam veterans dismayed by Kerry's subsequent
antiwar activities, which has aired a controversial television
advertisement attacking his war record.

In interviews and written reminiscences, Kerry has described how his
50-foot patrol boat came under fire from the banks of the Bay Hap
after a mine explosion disabled another U.S. patrol boat. According to
Kerry and members of his crew, the firing continued as an injured
Kerry leaned over the bow of his ship to rescue a Special Forces
officer who was blown overboard in a second explosion.

Last month, Thurlow swore in an affidavit that Kerry was "not under
fire" when he fished Lt. James Rassmann out of the water. He described
Kerry's Bronze Star citation, which says that all units involved came
under "small arms and automatic weapons fire," as "totally
fabricated."

"I never heard a shot," Thurlow said in his affidavit, which was
released by Swift Boats Veterans for Truth. The group claims the
backing of more than 250 Vietnam veterans, including a majority of
Kerry's fellow boat commanders.

A document recommending Thurlow for the Bronze Star noted that all his
actions "took place under constant enemy small arms fire which LTJG
THURLOW completely ignored in providing immediate assistance" to the
disabled boat and its crew. The citation states that all other units
in the flotilla also came under fire.

"It's like a Hollywood presentation here, which wasn't the case,"
Thurlow said last night after being read the full text of his Bronze
Star citation. "My personal feeling was always that I got the award
for coming to the rescue of the boat that was mined. This casts doubt
on anybody's awards. It is sickening and disgusting."

Thurlow said he would consider his award "fraudulent" if coming under
enemy fire was the basis for it. "I am here to state that we weren't
under fire," he said. He speculated that Kerry could have been the
source of at least some of the language used in the citation.

In a telephone interview Tuesday evening after he attended a Swift
Boat Veterans strategy session in an Arlington hotel, Thurlow said he
lost his Bronze Star citation more than 20 years ago. He said he was
unwilling to authorize release of his military records because he
feared attempts by the Kerry campaign to discredit him and other
anti-Kerry veterans.

The Post filed an independent request for the documents with the
National Personnel Records Center in St. Louis, which is the central
repository for veterans' records. The documents were faxed to The Post
by officials at the records center yesterday.

Thurlow and other anti-Kerry veterans have repeatedly alleged that
Kerry was the author of an after-action report that described how his
boat came under enemy fire. Kerry campaign researchers dispute that
assertion, and there is no convincing documentary evidence to settle
the argument. As the senior skipper in the flotilla, Thurlow might
have been expected to write the after-action report for March 13, but
he said that Kerry routinely "duked the system" to present his version
of events.

For much of the episode, Kerry was not in a position to know firsthand
what was happening on Thurlow's boat, as Kerry's boat had sped down
the river after the mine exploded under another boat. He later
returned to provide assistance to the stricken boat.

Thurlow, an oil industry worker and former teacher in Kansas, said he
was angry with Kerry for his antiwar activities on his return to the
United States and particularly Kerry's claim before the Senate Foreign
Relations Committee that U.S. troops in Vietnam had committed war
crimes "with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command."

" 'Upset' is too mild a word," said Thurlow, a registered Republican,
of his reaction to Kerry then. "He did it strictly for his own
personal political gain, and it directly affected every single one of
us as we were trying to put our lives together."

Two other Swift boat skippers who were direct participants in the
March 13, 1969, mine explosion on the Bay Hap, Jack Chenoweth and
Richard Pees, have said they do not remember coming under "enemy
fire." A fourth commander, Don Droz, who was one of Kerry's closest
friends in Vietnam, was killed in action a month later.

The incident featured prominently in an anti-Kerry television ad
produced by Swift Boat Veterans for Truth earlier this month. "John
Kerry lied to get his Bronze Star," says Van Odell, a gunner on
PCF-23, one of the boats that came to the rescue of the stricken boat.
"I know. I was there."

The Bronze Star controversy is also a major focus of an anti-Kerry
book by John E. O'Neill, "Unfit for Command: Swift Boat Veterans Speak
Out Against John Kerry," which will hit No. 2 on The Post's bestseller
list this weekend. The book accuses Kerry of "fleeing the scene" and
lying repeatedly about his role.

Members of Kerry's crew have come to his defense, as has Rassmann, the
Special Forces officer whom he fished from the river. Rassmann says he
has vivid memories of being fired at from both banks after he fell
into the river and as Kerry came to his rescue. The two had an
emotional reunion on the eve of the Iowa Democratic caucuses in
January, an event that some political analysts believe helped swing
votes to Kerry at a crucial time.

The Bronze Star recommendations for both Kerry and Thurlow were signed
by Lt. Cmdr. George M. Elliott, who received reports on the incident
from his base in the Gulf of Thailand. Elliott is a supporter of Swift
Boat Veterans for Truth and has questioned Kerry's actions in Vietnam.
But he has refused repeated requests for an interview after issuing
conflicting statements to the Boston Globe about whether Kerry
deserved a Silver Star. He was unreachable last night.

Money has poured into Swift Boat Veterans for Truth since the group
launched its television advertisement attacking Kerry earlier this
month. According to O'Neill, the group has received more than $450,000
over the past two weeks, mainly in small contributions. The Dallas
Morning News reported yesterday that the organization has also
received two $100,000 checks from Houston home builder Bob Perry, who
backed George W. Bush's campaigns for Texas governor and for
president.

Bush campaign officials have said they have no connection to Swift
Boat Veterans for Truth, which is not permitted to coordinate its
activities with a presidential campaign under federal election law.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13267-2004Aug18.html
Pizen
2004-08-19 12:49:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Riddick
Records Counter A Critic Of Kerry
Fellow Skipper's Citation Refers To Enemy Fire
By Michael Dobbs
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, August 19, 2004; Page A01
Newly obtained military records of one of Sen. John F. Kerry's most
vocal critics, who has accused the Democratic presidential candidate
of lying about his wartime record to win medals, contradict his own
version of events.
In newspaper interviews and a best-selling book, Larry Thurlow, who
commanded a Navy Swift boat alongside Kerry in Vietnam, has strongly
disputed Kerry's claim that the Massachusetts Democrat's boat came
under fire during a mission in Viet Cong-controlled territory on March
13, 1969. Kerry won a Bronze Star for his actions that day.
But Thurlow's military records, portions of which were released
yesterday to The Washington Post under the Freedom of Information Act,
contain several references to "enemy small arms and automatic
weapons
Post by Riddick
fire" directed at "all units" of the five-boat flotilla. Thurlow won
his own Bronze Star that day, and the citation praises him for
providing assistance to a damaged Swift boat "despite enemy bullets
flying about him."
As one of five Swift boat skippers who led the raid up the Bay Hap
River, Thurlow was a direct participant in the disputed events. He is
also a leading member of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, a public
advocacy group of Vietnam veterans dismayed by Kerry's subsequent
antiwar activities, which has aired a controversial television
advertisement attacking his war record.
In interviews and written reminiscences, Kerry has described how his
50-foot patrol boat came under fire from the banks of the Bay Hap
after a mine explosion disabled another U.S. patrol boat. According to
Kerry and members of his crew, the firing continued as an injured
Kerry leaned over the bow of his ship to rescue a Special Forces
officer who was blown overboard in a second explosion.
Last month, Thurlow swore in an affidavit that Kerry was "not under
fire" when he fished Lt. James Rassmann out of the water. He
described
Post by Riddick
Kerry's Bronze Star citation, which says that all units involved came
under "small arms and automatic weapons fire," as "totally
fabricated."
"I never heard a shot," Thurlow said in his affidavit, which was
released by Swift Boats Veterans for Truth. The group claims the
backing of more than 250 Vietnam veterans, including a majority of
Kerry's fellow boat commanders.
A document recommending Thurlow for the Bronze Star noted that all his
actions "took place under constant enemy small arms fire which LTJG
THURLOW completely ignored in providing immediate assistance" to the
disabled boat and its crew. The citation states that all other units
in the flotilla also came under fire.
"It's like a Hollywood presentation here, which wasn't the case,"
Thurlow said last night after being read the full text of his Bronze
Star citation. "My personal feeling was always that I got the award
for coming to the rescue of the boat that was mined. This casts doubt
on anybody's awards. It is sickening and disgusting."
Thurlow said he would consider his award "fraudulent" if coming under
enemy fire was the basis for it. "I am here to state that we weren't
under fire," he said. He speculated that Kerry could have been the
source of at least some of the language used in the citation.
In a telephone interview Tuesday evening after he attended a Swift
Boat Veterans strategy session in an Arlington hotel, Thurlow said he
lost his Bronze Star citation more than 20 years ago. He said he was
unwilling to authorize release of his military records because he
feared attempts by the Kerry campaign to discredit him and other
anti-Kerry veterans.
The Post filed an independent request for the documents with the
National Personnel Records Center in St. Louis, which is the central
repository for veterans' records. The documents were faxed to The Post
by officials at the records center yesterday.
Thurlow and other anti-Kerry veterans have repeatedly alleged that
Kerry was the author of an after-action report that described how his
boat came under enemy fire. Kerry campaign researchers dispute that
assertion, and there is no convincing documentary evidence to settle
the argument. As the senior skipper in the flotilla, Thurlow might
have been expected to write the after-action report for March 13, but
he said that Kerry routinely "duked the system" to present his
version
Post by Riddick
of events.
For much of the episode, Kerry was not in a position to know
firsthand
Post by Riddick
what was happening on Thurlow's boat, as Kerry's boat had sped down
the river after the mine exploded under another boat. He later
returned to provide assistance to the stricken boat.
Thurlow, an oil industry worker and former teacher in Kansas, said he
was angry with Kerry for his antiwar activities on his return to the
United States and particularly Kerry's claim before the Senate
Foreign
Post by Riddick
Relations Committee that U.S. troops in Vietnam had committed war
crimes "with the full awareness of officers at all levels of
command."
Post by Riddick
" 'Upset' is too mild a word," said Thurlow, a registered
Republican,
Post by Riddick
of his reaction to Kerry then. "He did it strictly for his own
personal political gain, and it directly affected every single one of
us as we were trying to put our lives together."
Two other Swift boat skippers who were direct participants in the
March 13, 1969, mine explosion on the Bay Hap, Jack Chenoweth and
Richard Pees, have said they do not remember coming under "enemy
fire." A fourth commander, Don Droz, who was one of Kerry's closest
friends in Vietnam, was killed in action a month later.
The incident featured prominently in an anti-Kerry television ad
produced by Swift Boat Veterans for Truth earlier this month. "John
Kerry lied to get his Bronze Star," says Van Odell, a gunner on
PCF-23, one of the boats that came to the rescue of the stricken boat.
"I know. I was there."
The Bronze Star controversy is also a major focus of an anti-Kerry
book by John E. O'Neill, "Unfit for Command: Swift Boat Veterans Speak
Out Against John Kerry," which will hit No. 2 on The Post's
bestseller
Post by Riddick
list this weekend. The book accuses Kerry of "fleeing the scene" and
lying repeatedly about his role.
Members of Kerry's crew have come to his defense, as has Rassmann, the
Special Forces officer whom he fished from the river. Rassmann says he
has vivid memories of being fired at from both banks after he fell
into the river and as Kerry came to his rescue. The two had an
emotional reunion on the eve of the Iowa Democratic caucuses in
January, an event that some political analysts believe helped swing
votes to Kerry at a crucial time.
The Bronze Star recommendations for both Kerry and Thurlow were signed
by Lt. Cmdr. George M. Elliott, who received reports on the incident
from his base in the Gulf of Thailand. Elliott is a supporter of Swift
Boat Veterans for Truth and has questioned Kerry's actions in
Vietnam.
Post by Riddick
But he has refused repeated requests for an interview after issuing
conflicting statements to the Boston Globe about whether Kerry
deserved a Silver Star. He was unreachable last night.
Money has poured into Swift Boat Veterans for Truth since the group
launched its television advertisement attacking Kerry earlier this
month. According to O'Neill, the group has received more than
$450,000
Post by Riddick
over the past two weeks, mainly in small contributions. The Dallas
Morning News reported yesterday that the organization has also
received two $100,000 checks from Houston home builder Bob Perry, who
backed George W. Bush's campaigns for Texas governor and for
president.
Bush campaign officials have said they have no connection to Swift
Boat Veterans for Truth, which is not permitted to coordinate its
activities with a presidential campaign under federal election law.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13267-2004Aug18.html
The record for the Bronze Star contradicts what he's saying, but that
doesn't necessarily make him a liar. The record could be simply
wrong. Or it contained canned language that would normally be
expected for a Bronze Star citation. Or it contains incorrect
information that was necessary to include in order that Senator Kerry
could receive a commendation. I truly hope the latter is not the
case, but people who lust for the Presidency often times lose their
minds.
--
"Life is hard. Life is harder when
you're stupid". - John Wayne

"Politics is war without bloodshed while
war is politics with bloodshed" - Mao Zedong

'99 FLHRCI

Remove 74 before replying.
h***@nospam.com
2004-08-19 14:24:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pizen
The record for the Bronze Star contradicts what he's saying, but that
doesn't necessarily make him a liar. The record could be simply
wrong. Or it contained canned language that would normally be
expected for a Bronze Star citation. Or it contains incorrect
information that was necessary to include in order that Senator Kerry
could receive a commendation. I truly hope the latter is not the
case, but people who lust for the Presidency often times lose their
minds.
Yes, very true, as we have seen over the last four years.

Hal
Doug Reese
2004-08-19 15:17:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Riddick
Post by Riddick
Records Counter A Critic Of Kerry
Fellow Skipper's Citation Refers To Enemy Fire
By Michael Dobbs
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, August 19, 2004; Page A01
Newly obtained military records of one of Sen. John F. Kerry's most
vocal critics, who has accused the Democratic presidential candidate
of lying about his wartime record to win medals, contradict his own
version of events.
In newspaper interviews and a best-selling book, Larry Thurlow, who
commanded a Navy Swift boat alongside Kerry in Vietnam, has strongly
disputed Kerry's claim that the Massachusetts Democrat's boat came
under fire during a mission in Viet Cong-controlled territory on
March
Post by Riddick
13, 1969. Kerry won a Bronze Star for his actions that day.
But Thurlow's military records, portions of which were released
yesterday to The Washington Post under the Freedom of Information
Act,
Post by Riddick
contain several references to "enemy small arms and automatic
weapons
Post by Riddick
fire" directed at "all units" of the five-boat flotilla. Thurlow won
his own Bronze Star that day, and the citation praises him for
providing assistance to a damaged Swift boat "despite enemy bullets
flying about him."
As one of five Swift boat skippers who led the raid up the Bay Hap
River, Thurlow was a direct participant in the disputed events. He
is
Post by Riddick
also a leading member of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, a public
advocacy group of Vietnam veterans dismayed by Kerry's subsequent
antiwar activities, which has aired a controversial television
advertisement attacking his war record.
In interviews and written reminiscences, Kerry has described how his
50-foot patrol boat came under fire from the banks of the Bay Hap
after a mine explosion disabled another U.S. patrol boat. According
to
Post by Riddick
Kerry and members of his crew, the firing continued as an injured
Kerry leaned over the bow of his ship to rescue a Special Forces
officer who was blown overboard in a second explosion.
Last month, Thurlow swore in an affidavit that Kerry was "not under
fire" when he fished Lt. James Rassmann out of the water. He
described
Post by Riddick
Kerry's Bronze Star citation, which says that all units involved
came
Post by Riddick
under "small arms and automatic weapons fire," as "totally
fabricated."
"I never heard a shot," Thurlow said in his affidavit, which was
released by Swift Boats Veterans for Truth. The group claims the
backing of more than 250 Vietnam veterans, including a majority of
Kerry's fellow boat commanders.
A document recommending Thurlow for the Bronze Star noted that all
his
Post by Riddick
actions "took place under constant enemy small arms fire which LTJG
THURLOW completely ignored in providing immediate assistance" to the
disabled boat and its crew. The citation states that all other units
in the flotilla also came under fire.
"It's like a Hollywood presentation here, which wasn't the case,"
Thurlow said last night after being read the full text of his Bronze
Star citation. "My personal feeling was always that I got the award
for coming to the rescue of the boat that was mined. This casts
doubt
Post by Riddick
on anybody's awards. It is sickening and disgusting."
Thurlow said he would consider his award "fraudulent" if coming
under
Post by Riddick
enemy fire was the basis for it. "I am here to state that we weren't
under fire," he said. He speculated that Kerry could have been the
source of at least some of the language used in the citation.
In a telephone interview Tuesday evening after he attended a Swift
Boat Veterans strategy session in an Arlington hotel, Thurlow said
he
Post by Riddick
lost his Bronze Star citation more than 20 years ago. He said he was
unwilling to authorize release of his military records because he
feared attempts by the Kerry campaign to discredit him and other
anti-Kerry veterans.
The Post filed an independent request for the documents with the
National Personnel Records Center in St. Louis, which is the central
repository for veterans' records. The documents were faxed to The
Post
Post by Riddick
by officials at the records center yesterday.
Thurlow and other anti-Kerry veterans have repeatedly alleged that
Kerry was the author of an after-action report that described how
his
Post by Riddick
boat came under enemy fire. Kerry campaign researchers dispute that
assertion, and there is no convincing documentary evidence to settle
the argument. As the senior skipper in the flotilla, Thurlow might
have been expected to write the after-action report for March 13,
but
Post by Riddick
he said that Kerry routinely "duked the system" to present his
version
Post by Riddick
of events.
For much of the episode, Kerry was not in a position to know
firsthand
Post by Riddick
what was happening on Thurlow's boat, as Kerry's boat had sped down
the river after the mine exploded under another boat. He later
returned to provide assistance to the stricken boat.
Thurlow, an oil industry worker and former teacher in Kansas, said
he
Post by Riddick
was angry with Kerry for his antiwar activities on his return to the
United States and particularly Kerry's claim before the Senate
Foreign
Post by Riddick
Relations Committee that U.S. troops in Vietnam had committed war
crimes "with the full awareness of officers at all levels of
command."
Post by Riddick
" 'Upset' is too mild a word," said Thurlow, a registered
Republican,
Post by Riddick
of his reaction to Kerry then. "He did it strictly for his own
personal political gain, and it directly affected every single one
of
Post by Riddick
us as we were trying to put our lives together."
Two other Swift boat skippers who were direct participants in the
March 13, 1969, mine explosion on the Bay Hap, Jack Chenoweth and
Richard Pees, have said they do not remember coming under "enemy
fire." A fourth commander, Don Droz, who was one of Kerry's closest
friends in Vietnam, was killed in action a month later.
The incident featured prominently in an anti-Kerry television ad
produced by Swift Boat Veterans for Truth earlier this month. "John
Kerry lied to get his Bronze Star," says Van Odell, a gunner on
PCF-23, one of the boats that came to the rescue of the stricken
boat.
Post by Riddick
"I know. I was there."
The Bronze Star controversy is also a major focus of an anti-Kerry
book by John E. O'Neill, "Unfit for Command: Swift Boat Veterans
Speak
Post by Riddick
Out Against John Kerry," which will hit No. 2 on The Post's
bestseller
Post by Riddick
list this weekend. The book accuses Kerry of "fleeing the scene" and
lying repeatedly about his role.
Members of Kerry's crew have come to his defense, as has Rassmann,
the
Post by Riddick
Special Forces officer whom he fished from the river. Rassmann says
he
Post by Riddick
has vivid memories of being fired at from both banks after he fell
into the river and as Kerry came to his rescue. The two had an
emotional reunion on the eve of the Iowa Democratic caucuses in
January, an event that some political analysts believe helped swing
votes to Kerry at a crucial time.
The Bronze Star recommendations for both Kerry and Thurlow were
signed
Post by Riddick
by Lt. Cmdr. George M. Elliott, who received reports on the incident
from his base in the Gulf of Thailand. Elliott is a supporter of
Swift
Post by Riddick
Boat Veterans for Truth and has questioned Kerry's actions in
Vietnam.
Post by Riddick
But he has refused repeated requests for an interview after issuing
conflicting statements to the Boston Globe about whether Kerry
deserved a Silver Star. He was unreachable last night.
Money has poured into Swift Boat Veterans for Truth since the group
launched its television advertisement attacking Kerry earlier this
month. According to O'Neill, the group has received more than
$450,000
Post by Riddick
over the past two weeks, mainly in small contributions. The Dallas
Morning News reported yesterday that the organization has also
received two $100,000 checks from Houston home builder Bob Perry,
who
Post by Riddick
backed George W. Bush's campaigns for Texas governor and for
president.
Bush campaign officials have said they have no connection to Swift
Boat Veterans for Truth, which is not permitted to coordinate its
activities with a presidential campaign under federal election law.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13267-2004Aug18.html
The record for the Bronze Star contradicts what he's saying, but that
doesn't necessarily make him a liar. The record could be simply
wrong. Or it contained canned language that would normally be
expected for a Bronze Star citation. Or it contains incorrect
information that was necessary to include in order that Senator Kerry
could receive a commendation. I truly hope the latter is not the
case, but people who lust for the Presidency often times lose their
minds.
Get a copy of Unfit for Command, then look at how O'Neill dances around avoiding a
mention of Thurlow's Bronze Star, which he absolutely, for sure, knew about.

I can't believe they thought they were going to get away with this.

Doug
Post by Riddick
--
"Life is hard. Life is harder when
you're stupid". - John Wayne
"Politics is war without bloodshed while
war is politics with bloodshed" - Mao Zedong
'99 FLHRCI
Remove 74 before replying.
George Leroy Tyrebiter, Jr.
2004-08-19 17:06:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pizen
The record for the Bronze Star contradicts what he's saying, but that
doesn't necessarily make him a liar. The record could be simply
wrong. Or it contained canned language that would normally be
expected for a Bronze Star citation. Or it contains incorrect
information that was necessary to include in order that Senator Kerry
could receive a commendation. I truly hope the latter is not the
case, but people who lust for the Presidency often times lose their
minds.
It contained language specific to the day, consistent with what Kerry
and those on his boat say happened.

It's no canned.

THis fellow was the senior officer and would normally be the person to
write up the after-action report.

Which also supports the claim that there was shooting.

And this guy FORGETS what the citation for his own bronze star said?

What are the odds of that?

And he LOST IT?

That's the kind of thing you rush to save from a fire. I have the
citation from my deceased Dad's bronze star and go through that stuff
every now and then. It is precious. In a safe place.

I find it hard to believe he both lost the citation and failed to
remember what it said. That bullets were flying around him and he
acted with indifference to them.

He FORGOT those words of extreme praise?


I remember kind words my first grade teach, Mrs Laughbon, said about
me in a report. I haven't seen it in many decades, but I remember the
words. I remember kind words from my second grade teacher in a report
card. Specifically. Pretty sickening I guess, but it's what we do -
remember the detail of praise in reports.

I remember kind words book reviewers said about me in 1972. Exactly.

I remember praise in a recommendation for college from 1964. Exactly.

Grad school - exactly.

And he forgets his bronze star citation said - there was gunfire and
he was indifferent to it?


What are the odds a guy would forget praise about him being under fire
and acting bravely in war?

He's a liar.

Most likely.

But I could be wrong.

Bet we have a pattern of ALL THE RECORDS from the time support Kerry
in this stuff. And ALL the claims of the smearvets are things they
just claim, without corroboration. And know can't be pinned on them,
generally.

The Secretary of the Navy conducts an independent investigation of the
facts for a Silver Star PRECISELY to weed out bozos who lie about
their expoits. They are sensitive - oops sorry - to the issue.

They approved Kerry's Silver Star. And the smearvets swear it wasn't
deserved.

All the records, all the independent investigations, side with Kerry.

None with the smearvets.

And even the records prepared at the time by the smearvets don't match
what they now say. Eliot praises Kerry at the time. Hoffman, an
officer, not a lowly enlisted man, was Zumwald's "trusty aide" and he
just sits there like a bump on a log as the Old Man commits a fraud by
pinning a medal on Kerry?

Good grief.

And would Bush or Rove support a smear? Well, yeah. They ALWAYS
support smears. The funder of the smearvets is a life-long friend of
Rove.

Rove campaigns are KNOWN for crap like this. It's his way.

Before the Bush team said McCain had been brainwashed and was going to
be a Manchurian candidate. They said he had a black baby with a
prostitute.

It's the modus operandi of the Bush team. Remember Willie Horton,
where the Bush team back then said this guy was released and killed
the girl? Horton drove the car. He didn't kill the girl.

It was a smear. ANd no one from the offiical Bush campaign ever called
the unofficial Bush campaign running the ad to ask them to stop.

It's a pattern for Bushes.

It's what they do.

The smearvets are lying , per Douglas Brinkley. Per Rassman. Per
Kerry.

Per the records just released.

Per the logic of the affidavit about how they were just yards from
Rassman. And left him there while Kerry waited until the coast was
clear to come back. They LEFT Rassman in the water, while Kerry fled,
and waited out the shooting? why?

Nah. It's a smear.
Post by Pizen
--
Tammy
2004-08-19 18:19:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Riddick
Post by Riddick
Records Counter A Critic Of Kerry
Fellow Skipper's Citation Refers To Enemy Fire
By Michael Dobbs
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, August 19, 2004; Page A01
Newly obtained military records of one of Sen. John F. Kerry's most
vocal critics, who has accused the Democratic presidential candidate
of lying about his wartime record to win medals, contradict his own
version of events.
In newspaper interviews and a best-selling book, Larry Thurlow, who
commanded a Navy Swift boat alongside Kerry in Vietnam, has strongly
disputed Kerry's claim that the Massachusetts Democrat's boat came
under fire during a mission in Viet Cong-controlled territory on
March
Post by Riddick
13, 1969. Kerry won a Bronze Star for his actions that day.
But Thurlow's military records, portions of which were released
yesterday to The Washington Post under the Freedom of Information
Act,
Post by Riddick
contain several references to "enemy small arms and automatic
weapons
Post by Riddick
fire" directed at "all units" of the five-boat flotilla. Thurlow won
his own Bronze Star that day, and the citation praises him for
providing assistance to a damaged Swift boat "despite enemy bullets
flying about him."
As one of five Swift boat skippers who led the raid up the Bay Hap
River, Thurlow was a direct participant in the disputed events. He
is
Post by Riddick
also a leading member of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, a public
advocacy group of Vietnam veterans dismayed by Kerry's subsequent
antiwar activities, which has aired a controversial television
advertisement attacking his war record.
In interviews and written reminiscences, Kerry has described how his
50-foot patrol boat came under fire from the banks of the Bay Hap
after a mine explosion disabled another U.S. patrol boat. According
to
Post by Riddick
Kerry and members of his crew, the firing continued as an injured
Kerry leaned over the bow of his ship to rescue a Special Forces
officer who was blown overboard in a second explosion.
Last month, Thurlow swore in an affidavit that Kerry was "not under
fire" when he fished Lt. James Rassmann out of the water. He
described
Post by Riddick
Kerry's Bronze Star citation, which says that all units involved
came
Post by Riddick
under "small arms and automatic weapons fire," as "totally
fabricated."
"I never heard a shot," Thurlow said in his affidavit, which was
released by Swift Boats Veterans for Truth. The group claims the
backing of more than 250 Vietnam veterans, including a majority of
Kerry's fellow boat commanders.
A document recommending Thurlow for the Bronze Star noted that all
his
Post by Riddick
actions "took place under constant enemy small arms fire which LTJG
THURLOW completely ignored in providing immediate assistance" to the
disabled boat and its crew. The citation states that all other units
in the flotilla also came under fire.
"It's like a Hollywood presentation here, which wasn't the case,"
Thurlow said last night after being read the full text of his Bronze
Star citation. "My personal feeling was always that I got the award
for coming to the rescue of the boat that was mined. This casts
doubt
Post by Riddick
on anybody's awards. It is sickening and disgusting."
Thurlow said he would consider his award "fraudulent" if coming
under
Post by Riddick
enemy fire was the basis for it. "I am here to state that we weren't
under fire," he said. He speculated that Kerry could have been the
source of at least some of the language used in the citation.
In a telephone interview Tuesday evening after he attended a Swift
Boat Veterans strategy session in an Arlington hotel, Thurlow said
he
Post by Riddick
lost his Bronze Star citation more than 20 years ago. He said he was
unwilling to authorize release of his military records because he
feared attempts by the Kerry campaign to discredit him and other
anti-Kerry veterans.
The Post filed an independent request for the documents with the
National Personnel Records Center in St. Louis, which is the central
repository for veterans' records. The documents were faxed to The
Post
Post by Riddick
by officials at the records center yesterday.
Thurlow and other anti-Kerry veterans have repeatedly alleged that
Kerry was the author of an after-action report that described how
his
Post by Riddick
boat came under enemy fire. Kerry campaign researchers dispute that
assertion, and there is no convincing documentary evidence to settle
the argument. As the senior skipper in the flotilla, Thurlow might
have been expected to write the after-action report for March 13,
but
Post by Riddick
he said that Kerry routinely "duked the system" to present his
version
Post by Riddick
of events.
For much of the episode, Kerry was not in a position to know
firsthand
Post by Riddick
what was happening on Thurlow's boat, as Kerry's boat had sped down
the river after the mine exploded under another boat. He later
returned to provide assistance to the stricken boat.
Thurlow, an oil industry worker and former teacher in Kansas, said
he
Post by Riddick
was angry with Kerry for his antiwar activities on his return to the
United States and particularly Kerry's claim before the Senate
Foreign
Post by Riddick
Relations Committee that U.S. troops in Vietnam had committed war
crimes "with the full awareness of officers at all levels of
command."
Post by Riddick
" 'Upset' is too mild a word," said Thurlow, a registered
Republican,
Post by Riddick
of his reaction to Kerry then. "He did it strictly for his own
personal political gain, and it directly affected every single one
of
Post by Riddick
us as we were trying to put our lives together."
Two other Swift boat skippers who were direct participants in the
March 13, 1969, mine explosion on the Bay Hap, Jack Chenoweth and
Richard Pees, have said they do not remember coming under "enemy
fire." A fourth commander, Don Droz, who was one of Kerry's closest
friends in Vietnam, was killed in action a month later.
The incident featured prominently in an anti-Kerry television ad
produced by Swift Boat Veterans for Truth earlier this month. "John
Kerry lied to get his Bronze Star," says Van Odell, a gunner on
PCF-23, one of the boats that came to the rescue of the stricken
boat.
Post by Riddick
"I know. I was there."
The Bronze Star controversy is also a major focus of an anti-Kerry
book by John E. O'Neill, "Unfit for Command: Swift Boat Veterans
Speak
Post by Riddick
Out Against John Kerry," which will hit No. 2 on The Post's
bestseller
Post by Riddick
list this weekend. The book accuses Kerry of "fleeing the scene" and
lying repeatedly about his role.
Members of Kerry's crew have come to his defense, as has Rassmann,
the
Post by Riddick
Special Forces officer whom he fished from the river. Rassmann says
he
Post by Riddick
has vivid memories of being fired at from both banks after he fell
into the river and as Kerry came to his rescue. The two had an
emotional reunion on the eve of the Iowa Democratic caucuses in
January, an event that some political analysts believe helped swing
votes to Kerry at a crucial time.
The Bronze Star recommendations for both Kerry and Thurlow were
signed
Post by Riddick
by Lt. Cmdr. George M. Elliott, who received reports on the incident
from his base in the Gulf of Thailand. Elliott is a supporter of
Swift
Post by Riddick
Boat Veterans for Truth and has questioned Kerry's actions in
Vietnam.
Post by Riddick
But he has refused repeated requests for an interview after issuing
conflicting statements to the Boston Globe about whether Kerry
deserved a Silver Star. He was unreachable last night.
Money has poured into Swift Boat Veterans for Truth since the group
launched its television advertisement attacking Kerry earlier this
month. According to O'Neill, the group has received more than
$450,000
Post by Riddick
over the past two weeks, mainly in small contributions. The Dallas
Morning News reported yesterday that the organization has also
received two $100,000 checks from Houston home builder Bob Perry,
who
Post by Riddick
backed George W. Bush's campaigns for Texas governor and for
president.
Bush campaign officials have said they have no connection to Swift
Boat Veterans for Truth, which is not permitted to coordinate its
activities with a presidential campaign under federal election law.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13267-2004Aug18.html
The record for the Bronze Star contradicts what he's saying, but that
doesn't necessarily make him a liar. The record could be simply
wrong. Or it contained canned language that would normally be
expected for a Bronze Star citation. Or it contains incorrect
information that was necessary to include in order that Senator Kerry
could receive a commendation. I truly hope the latter is not the
case, but people who lust for the Presidency often times lose their
minds.
Don't you find it suspicious that the eyewitness accounts of John
Kerry and the people who were actually on his boat (including the
person whose life John Kerry saved), the military records of the time
(both that of John Kerry's and Thurlow's) all agree with each other
and contradict that of the Swiftboat Vets for Bush? The only people
who are contradicting the military's version of events are paid GOP
operatives. Kindof discredits their alligations, doesn't it?
Post by Riddick
--
"Life is hard. Life is harder when
you're stupid". - John Wayne
"Politics is war without bloodshed while
war is politics with bloodshed" - Mao Zedong
'99 FLHRCI
Remove 74 before replying.
Pizen
2004-08-19 20:11:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tammy
Don't you find it suspicious that the eyewitness accounts of John
Kerry and the people who were actually on his boat (including the
person whose life John Kerry saved), the military records of the time
(both that of John Kerry's and Thurlow's) all agree with each other
and contradict that of the Swiftboat Vets for Bush? The only people
who are contradicting the military's version of events are paid GOP
operatives. Kindof discredits their alligations, doesn't it?
Yeah, I do have a hard time believing it. And a previous poster had
it right - it smacks of Karl Rove politics (I do remember the Bush's
campaign smearing McCain and it was insidious). I mean, it's not like
there's not ample opportunity to attack Senator Kerry's positions on a
variety of topics that his service in the 'Nam has to be attacked as
well. I don't care if he rode around in the boat to only get
splinters in his butt - he was there, which is a lot more than you can
say for a lot of guys.
--
"Life is hard. Life is harder when
you're stupid". - John Wayne

"Politics is war without bloodshed while
war is politics with bloodshed" - Mao Zedong

'99 FLHRCI

Remove 74 before replying.
John Tibbs
2004-08-19 22:19:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pizen
Post by Tammy
Don't you find it suspicious that the eyewitness accounts of John
Kerry and the people who were actually on his boat (including the
person whose life John Kerry saved), the military records of the
time
Post by Tammy
(both that of John Kerry's and Thurlow's) all agree with each other
and contradict that of the Swiftboat Vets for Bush? The only people
who are contradicting the military's version of events are paid GOP
operatives. Kindof discredits their alligations, doesn't it?
Where's you documentation that they all were paid since now it's over 500
and climbing who come vocally and publicly out against Kerry?
Post by Pizen
Yeah, I do have a hard time believing it.
You should, since it's not true but simply damage control spin by Kerry's
surrogates.
jt
GWB
2004-08-19 23:23:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Tibbs
Post by Pizen
Post by Tammy
Don't you find it suspicious that the eyewitness accounts of John
Kerry and the people who were actually on his boat (including the
person whose life John Kerry saved), the military records of the
time
Post by Tammy
(both that of John Kerry's and Thurlow's) all agree with each other
and contradict that of the Swiftboat Vets for Bush? The only people
who are contradicting the military's version of events are paid GOP
operatives. Kindof discredits their alligations, doesn't it?
Where's you documentation that they all were paid since now it's over 500
and climbing who come vocally and publicly out against Kerry?
Post by Pizen
Yeah, I do have a hard time believing it.
You should, since it's not true but simply damage control spin by Kerry's
surrogates.
jt
Gotta admit it was cool of them to get Thurlow to lie like that.
Jake M
2004-08-22 02:10:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by GWB
Post by John Tibbs
Post by Pizen
Post by Tammy
Don't you find it suspicious that the eyewitness accounts of John
Kerry and the people who were actually on his boat (including the
person whose life John Kerry saved), the military records of the
time
Post by Tammy
(both that of John Kerry's and Thurlow's) all agree with each other
and contradict that of the Swiftboat Vets for Bush? The only people
who are contradicting the military's version of events are paid GOP
operatives. Kindof discredits their alligations, doesn't it?
Where's you documentation that they all were paid since now it's over 500
and climbing who come vocally and publicly out against Kerry?
Post by Pizen
Yeah, I do have a hard time believing it.
You should, since it's not true but simply damage control spin by Kerry's
surrogates.
jt
Gotta admit it was cool of them to get Thurlow to lie like that.
Did Thurlow say when he'd be sending his undeserved bronze star back to
the Navy?
Yeah, I didn't think so.
Tammy
2004-08-23 16:00:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jake M
Post by GWB
Post by John Tibbs
Post by Pizen
Post by Tammy
Don't you find it suspicious that the eyewitness accounts of John
Kerry and the people who were actually on his boat (including the
person whose life John Kerry saved), the military records of the
time
Post by GWB
Post by John Tibbs
Post by Pizen
Post by Tammy
(both that of John Kerry's and Thurlow's) all agree with each other
and contradict that of the Swiftboat Vets for Bush? The only people
who are contradicting the military's version of events are paid GOP
operatives. Kindof discredits their alligations, doesn't it?
Where's you documentation that they all were paid since now it's over 500
and climbing who come vocally and publicly out against Kerry?
Post by Pizen
Yeah, I do have a hard time believing it.
You should, since it's not true but simply damage control spin by Kerry's
surrogates.
jt
Gotta admit it was cool of them to get Thurlow to lie like that.
Did Thurlow say when he'd be sending his undeserved bronze star back to
the Navy?
Yeah, I didn't think so.
"A veteran who disputed Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry's
Vietnam war record acknowledged on Sunday he had no proof to back his
charge that Kerry fabricated the reports of enemy fire that won him
two medals."

""I do not have a single document," Odell said. "

"Odell said he had met with Republican strategist Merrie Spaeth, a
public relations consultant to his group, and once bought a home from
Bob Perry, a large Republican donor from Texas and close associate of
Karl Rove, the president's chief political adviser. "

Isn't it funny how only people closely associated with Bush and his
handlers ever have damning information? Again, without any evidence.

"Republican Sen. Pat Roberts of Kansas, chairman of the Senate
intelligence committee, said while the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth
group had "every right" to express their opinion, "we ought to get out
of the character assassination business." "

Hey, could it be? A GOP member with integrity enough to attack his own
party in the interest of truth?

"The Bush campaign has acknowledged that Ken Cordier, a Vietnam
veteran who appeared in a Swift Boat Veterans for Truth commercial,
had been working with the campaign"

No surprise there.

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/reuters20040822_232.html


----------------

"A series of interviews and a review of documents show a web of
connections to the Bush family, high-profile Texas political figures
and President Bush's chief political aide, Karl Rove. "

"Records show that the group received the bulk of its initial
financing from two men with ties to the president and his family - one
a longtime political associate of Mr. Rove's, the other a trustee of
the foundation for Mr. Bush's father's presidential library."

"Mr. Rove, Mr. Bush's top political aide, recently said through a
spokeswoman that he and Mr. Perry were longtime friends"

"Mr. Perry, who has given $200,000 to the group, is the top donor to
Republicans in the state"

"He donated $46,000 to President Bush's campaigns for governor in 1994
and 1998. In the 2002 election, the group said, he donated nearly $4
million to Texas candidates and political committees."

"Mr. Crow, the seventh-largest donor to Republicans "

"In 2000, Ms. Spaeth was spokeswoman for a group that ran $2 million
worth of ads attacking Senator John McCain's environmental record and
lauding Mr. Bush's in crucial states during their fierce primary
battle. The group, calling itself Republicans for Clean Air, was
founded by a prominent Texas supporter of Mr. Bush, Sam Wyly."

"Ms. Spaeth had been a communications official in the Reagan White
House, where the president's aides had enough confidence in her to
invite her to help prepare George Bush for his vice-presidential
debate in 1984. She says she is also a close friend of Senator Kay
Bailey Hutchison of Texas, a client of Mr. Rove's."

"When asked if she had ever visited the White House during Mr. Bush's
tenure, Ms. Spaeth initially said that she had been there only once,
in 2002, when Kenneth Starr gave her a personal tour. But this week
Ms. Spaeth acknowledged that she had spent an hour in the Old
Executive Office Building, part of the White House complex, in the
spring of 2003, giving Mr. Bush's chief economic adviser, Stephen
Friedman, public speaking advice. Asked if it was possible that she
had worked with other administration officials, Ms. Spaeth said, "The
answer is 'no,' unless you refresh my memory.''"

That's good. The answer is "no" unless you prove me wrong.

"Another participant is the political advertising agency that made the
group's television commercial: Stevens Reed Curcio & Potholm, based in
Alexandria, Va. The agency worked for Senator McCain in 2000 and for
Mr. Bush's father in 1988, when it created the "tank" advertisement
mocking Mr. Dukakis. "

"Mr. Elliott, who recommended Mr. Kerry for the Silver Star, had
signed one affidavit saying Mr. Kerry "was not forthright" in the
statements that had led to the award. Two weeks ago, The Boston Globe
quoted him as saying that he felt he should not have signed the
affidavit. "

"The book outlining the veterans' charges, "Unfit for Command: Swift
Boat Veterans Speak Out Against Kerry," has also come under fire. It
is published by Regnery, a conservative company that has published
numerous books critical of Democrats, and written by Mr. O'Neill and
Jerome R. Corsi"

"Mr. Corsi also acknowledged that he has been a contributor of
anti-Catholic, anti-Muslim and anti-Semitic comments "

"Dr. Louis Letson looks into the camera and declares, "I know John
Kerry is lying about his first Purple Heart because I treated him for
that injury." Dr. Letson does not dispute the wound - a piece of
shrapnel above Mr. Kerry's left elbow"

"Yet Dr. Letson's name does not appear on any of the medical records
for Mr. Kerry. Under "person administering treatment" for the injury,
the form is signed by a medic, J. C. Carreon, who died several years
ago. "

"Asked in an interview if there was any way to confirm he had treated
Mr. Kerry, Dr. Letson said, "I guess you'll have to take my word for
it." "

"The group also offers the account of William L. Schachte Jr, ... who
says in the book that he had been on the small skimmer on which Mr.
Kerry was injured that night in December 1968."

"But the two other men who acknowledged that they had been with Mr.
Kerry, Bill Zaladonis and Mr. Runyon, say they cannot recall a third
crew member. "Me and Bill aren't the smartest, but we can count to
three," Mr. Runyon said in an interview. And even Dr. Letson said he
had not recalled Mr. Schachte "

"According to Navy records, he [Kerry] turned the boat to charge the
Vietcong position. An enemy solider sprang from the shore about 10
feet in front of the boat. Mr. Kerry leaped onto the shore, chased the
soldier behind a small hut and killed him, seizing a B-40 rocket
launcher with a round in the chamber."

"Mr. Rassmann, who says he is a Republican, reappeared during the Iowa
caucuses this year to tell his story and support Mr. Kerry"

"Asked why Mr. Rassmann recalled that he was dodging enemy bullets, a
member of the group, Jack Chenoweth, said, "He's lying." "

"Several veterans insist that Mr. Kerry wrote his own reports,
pointing to the initials K. J. W. on one of the reports and saying
they are Mr. Kerry's. "What's the W for, I cannot answer," said Larry
Thurlow,"

"Mr. Kerry's middle initial is F, and a Navy official said the
initials refer to the person who had received the report at
headquarters, not the author"

"A damage report to Mr. Thurlow's boat shows that it received three
bullet holes, suggesting enemy fire, and later intelligence reports
indicate that one Vietcong was killed in action and five others
wounded, reaffirming the presence of an enemy. "

"He [Thurlow] also received a Bronze Star for the day, a fact left out
of "Unfit for Command." "

"a copy obtained by The New York Times indicates "enemy small arms,"
"automatic weapons fire" and "enemy bullets flying about him." "
l***@pacbell.net
2004-08-23 17:44:56 UTC
Permalink
WHY DOESN'T KERRY RELEASE HIS MILITARY MEDICAL RECORDS AND PUT THE ENTIRE
ISSUE TO BED?
Post by Tammy
Post by Jake M
Post by GWB
Post by John Tibbs
Post by Pizen
Post by Tammy
Don't you find it suspicious that the eyewitness accounts of John
Kerry and the people who were actually on his boat (including the
person whose life John Kerry saved), the military records of the
time
Post by GWB
Post by John Tibbs
Post by Pizen
Post by Tammy
(both that of John Kerry's and Thurlow's) all agree with each other
and contradict that of the Swiftboat Vets for Bush? The only people
who are contradicting the military's version of events are paid GOP
operatives. Kindof discredits their alligations, doesn't it?
Where's you documentation that they all were paid since now it's over 500
and climbing who come vocally and publicly out against Kerry?
Post by Pizen
Yeah, I do have a hard time believing it.
You should, since it's not true but simply damage control spin by Kerry's
surrogates.
jt
Gotta admit it was cool of them to get Thurlow to lie like that.
Did Thurlow say when he'd be sending his undeserved bronze star back to
the Navy?
Yeah, I didn't think so.
"A veteran who disputed Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry's
Vietnam war record acknowledged on Sunday he had no proof to back his
charge that Kerry fabricated the reports of enemy fire that won him
two medals."
""I do not have a single document," Odell said. "
"Odell said he had met with Republican strategist Merrie Spaeth, a
public relations consultant to his group, and once bought a home from
Bob Perry, a large Republican donor from Texas and close associate of
Karl Rove, the president's chief political adviser. "
Isn't it funny how only people closely associated with Bush and his
handlers ever have damning information? Again, without any evidence.
"Republican Sen. Pat Roberts of Kansas, chairman of the Senate
intelligence committee, said while the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth
group had "every right" to express their opinion, "we ought to get out
of the character assassination business." "
Hey, could it be? A GOP member with integrity enough to attack his own
party in the interest of truth?
"The Bush campaign has acknowledged that Ken Cordier, a Vietnam
veteran who appeared in a Swift Boat Veterans for Truth commercial,
had been working with the campaign"
No surprise there.
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/reuters20040822_232.html
----------------
"A series of interviews and a review of documents show a web of
connections to the Bush family, high-profile Texas political figures
and President Bush's chief political aide, Karl Rove. "
"Records show that the group received the bulk of its initial
financing from two men with ties to the president and his family - one
a longtime political associate of Mr. Rove's, the other a trustee of
the foundation for Mr. Bush's father's presidential library."
"Mr. Rove, Mr. Bush's top political aide, recently said through a
spokeswoman that he and Mr. Perry were longtime friends"
"Mr. Perry, who has given $200,000 to the group, is the top donor to
Republicans in the state"
"He donated $46,000 to President Bush's campaigns for governor in 1994
and 1998. In the 2002 election, the group said, he donated nearly $4
million to Texas candidates and political committees."
"Mr. Crow, the seventh-largest donor to Republicans "
"In 2000, Ms. Spaeth was spokeswoman for a group that ran $2 million
worth of ads attacking Senator John McCain's environmental record and
lauding Mr. Bush's in crucial states during their fierce primary
battle. The group, calling itself Republicans for Clean Air, was
founded by a prominent Texas supporter of Mr. Bush, Sam Wyly."
"Ms. Spaeth had been a communications official in the Reagan White
House, where the president's aides had enough confidence in her to
invite her to help prepare George Bush for his vice-presidential
debate in 1984. She says she is also a close friend of Senator Kay
Bailey Hutchison of Texas, a client of Mr. Rove's."
"When asked if she had ever visited the White House during Mr. Bush's
tenure, Ms. Spaeth initially said that she had been there only once,
in 2002, when Kenneth Starr gave her a personal tour. But this week
Ms. Spaeth acknowledged that she had spent an hour in the Old
Executive Office Building, part of the White House complex, in the
spring of 2003, giving Mr. Bush's chief economic adviser, Stephen
Friedman, public speaking advice. Asked if it was possible that she
had worked with other administration officials, Ms. Spaeth said, "The
answer is 'no,' unless you refresh my memory.''"
That's good. The answer is "no" unless you prove me wrong.
"Another participant is the political advertising agency that made the
group's television commercial: Stevens Reed Curcio & Potholm, based in
Alexandria, Va. The agency worked for Senator McCain in 2000 and for
Mr. Bush's father in 1988, when it created the "tank" advertisement
mocking Mr. Dukakis. "
"Mr. Elliott, who recommended Mr. Kerry for the Silver Star, had
signed one affidavit saying Mr. Kerry "was not forthright" in the
statements that had led to the award. Two weeks ago, The Boston Globe
quoted him as saying that he felt he should not have signed the
affidavit. "
"The book outlining the veterans' charges, "Unfit for Command: Swift
Boat Veterans Speak Out Against Kerry," has also come under fire. It
is published by Regnery, a conservative company that has published
numerous books critical of Democrats, and written by Mr. O'Neill and
Jerome R. Corsi"
"Mr. Corsi also acknowledged that he has been a contributor of
anti-Catholic, anti-Muslim and anti-Semitic comments "
"Dr. Louis Letson looks into the camera and declares, "I know John
Kerry is lying about his first Purple Heart because I treated him for
that injury." Dr. Letson does not dispute the wound - a piece of
shrapnel above Mr. Kerry's left elbow"
"Yet Dr. Letson's name does not appear on any of the medical records
for Mr. Kerry. Under "person administering treatment" for the injury,
the form is signed by a medic, J. C. Carreon, who died several years
ago. "
"Asked in an interview if there was any way to confirm he had treated
Mr. Kerry, Dr. Letson said, "I guess you'll have to take my word for
it." "
"The group also offers the account of William L. Schachte Jr, ... who
says in the book that he had been on the small skimmer on which Mr.
Kerry was injured that night in December 1968."
"But the two other men who acknowledged that they had been with Mr.
Kerry, Bill Zaladonis and Mr. Runyon, say they cannot recall a third
crew member. "Me and Bill aren't the smartest, but we can count to
three," Mr. Runyon said in an interview. And even Dr. Letson said he
had not recalled Mr. Schachte "
"According to Navy records, he [Kerry] turned the boat to charge the
Vietcong position. An enemy solider sprang from the shore about 10
feet in front of the boat. Mr. Kerry leaped onto the shore, chased the
soldier behind a small hut and killed him, seizing a B-40 rocket
launcher with a round in the chamber."
"Mr. Rassmann, who says he is a Republican, reappeared during the Iowa
caucuses this year to tell his story and support Mr. Kerry"
"Asked why Mr. Rassmann recalled that he was dodging enemy bullets, a
member of the group, Jack Chenoweth, said, "He's lying." "
"Several veterans insist that Mr. Kerry wrote his own reports,
pointing to the initials K. J. W. on one of the reports and saying
they are Mr. Kerry's. "What's the W for, I cannot answer," said Larry
Thurlow,"
"Mr. Kerry's middle initial is F, and a Navy official said the
initials refer to the person who had received the report at
headquarters, not the author"
"A damage report to Mr. Thurlow's boat shows that it received three
bullet holes, suggesting enemy fire, and later intelligence reports
indicate that one Vietcong was killed in action and five others
wounded, reaffirming the presence of an enemy. "
"He [Thurlow] also received a Bronze Star for the day, a fact left out
of "Unfit for Command." "
"a copy obtained by The New York Times indicates "enemy small arms,"
"automatic weapons fire" and "enemy bullets flying about him." "
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.739 / Virus Database: 493 - Release Date: 8/16/2004
George Leroy Tyrebiter, Jr.
2004-08-23 21:31:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@pacbell.net
WHY DOESN'T KERRY RELEASE HIS MILITARY MEDICAL RECORDS AND PUT THE ENTIRE
ISSUE TO BED?
ANd let Bush off the hook?

no way

Bush stepped into this quagmire, and there is no way Kerry's going to
let him out now

There have been 13 items of evidence since last monday come out.

All support Kerry and show Smearvets lying

Let's go for a hundred more

one a day

Saturday - guy in Kansas factory comes out. On boat right behind
Kerry. Fire coming at us from both banks.

Sunday - guy in Chicago, completely credible. One of the editors of
the Chicago Tribune. Kerry is great hero, Smearvets are liars.

ANd not only that, the top smearvet, the Godfather of the slimers,
Hoffman, RAVED about what Kerry did at the time. Now they say he
didn't do it.

Monday - officer on boat behind Kerry writes letter to his newspaper -
Kerry great hero, smearvets liars

Thurlow's citation released - incoming fire.

Smearvets panic and say - well maybe Kerry LIED in the after-action
report. Bullshit.

Next day - another citation comes out . Incoming fire. But more - it
says that the fact witness for Thurlows citation was a guy on
THurlow's boat, not Kerry.

Intelligence report found - dead viet cong, five wounded. Sounds like
there was shooting to me.

ONEILL and THURLOW - our boats didn't have a single bullet hole on
them, can't be shooting.

NY TIMES calls bluff. Gets damage report. Day after event - THurlow
boat has three bullet holes.

They had said, over and over, that their boats did not have one bullet
hole on tehm. Here are there.

It keeps getting better.

No way Kerry's going to let Bush off the hook.

He's going to say the truth. BUsh is a smear artist who has folks say
McCain fathered a nigger baby, to racist republicans in the So
Caroalina primary, who said McCain was a TRAITOR in Viet Nam. That's
right. A traitor. Said McCain was insane, couldn't be around teh
button. Viet Nam drove him crazy. etc

Bush -runs false lying smearvet ads now proven for 100th straight day
to have slimed Kerry.

Cambodia?

Kerry kept a journal AT THE TIME.

He gave it to Brinkley to do a book.

IT has entries of Kerry going into Cambodia three times.

Once to plant a CIA guy.

Camboda is ALSO going to blow up in their face.

Wow.

It's almost like Christmas Day 1968 this is so good.

Bush - he wanted to go into this swamp, no let's see if he can get
out.
Jake M
2004-08-23 22:58:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@pacbell.net
WHY DOESN'T KERRY RELEASE HIS MILITARY MEDICAL RECORDS AND PUT THE ENTIRE
ISSUE TO BED?
Why doesn't Bush tell us why he skipped a mandatory flight physical AND
then deserted his post? Those questions are still unanswered from 4
years ago.
Post by l***@pacbell.net
Post by Tammy
Post by Jake M
Post by GWB
Post by John Tibbs
Post by Pizen
Post by Tammy
Don't you find it suspicious that the eyewitness accounts of John
Kerry and the people who were actually on his boat (including the
person whose life John Kerry saved), the military records of the
time
Post by GWB
Post by John Tibbs
Post by Pizen
Post by Tammy
(both that of John Kerry's and Thurlow's) all agree with each
other
Post by Tammy
Post by Jake M
Post by GWB
Post by John Tibbs
Post by Pizen
Post by Tammy
and contradict that of the Swiftboat Vets for Bush? The only
people
Post by Tammy
Post by Jake M
Post by GWB
Post by John Tibbs
Post by Pizen
Post by Tammy
who are contradicting the military's version of events are paid
GOP
Post by Tammy
Post by Jake M
Post by GWB
Post by John Tibbs
Post by Pizen
Post by Tammy
operatives. Kindof discredits their alligations, doesn't it?
Where's you documentation that they all were paid since now it's over
500
Post by Tammy
Post by Jake M
Post by GWB
Post by John Tibbs
and climbing who come vocally and publicly out against Kerry?
Post by Pizen
Yeah, I do have a hard time believing it.
You should, since it's not true but simply damage control spin by
Kerry's
Post by Tammy
Post by Jake M
Post by GWB
Post by John Tibbs
surrogates.
jt
Gotta admit it was cool of them to get Thurlow to lie like that.
Did Thurlow say when he'd be sending his undeserved bronze star back to
the Navy?
Yeah, I didn't think so.
"A veteran who disputed Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry's
Vietnam war record acknowledged on Sunday he had no proof to back his
charge that Kerry fabricated the reports of enemy fire that won him
two medals."
""I do not have a single document," Odell said. "
"Odell said he had met with Republican strategist Merrie Spaeth, a
public relations consultant to his group, and once bought a home from
Bob Perry, a large Republican donor from Texas and close associate of
Karl Rove, the president's chief political adviser. "
Isn't it funny how only people closely associated with Bush and his
handlers ever have damning information? Again, without any evidence.
"Republican Sen. Pat Roberts of Kansas, chairman of the Senate
intelligence committee, said while the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth
group had "every right" to express their opinion, "we ought to get out
of the character assassination business." "
Hey, could it be? A GOP member with integrity enough to attack his own
party in the interest of truth?
"The Bush campaign has acknowledged that Ken Cordier, a Vietnam
veteran who appeared in a Swift Boat Veterans for Truth commercial,
had been working with the campaign"
No surprise there.
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/reuters20040822_232.html
----------------
"A series of interviews and a review of documents show a web of
connections to the Bush family, high-profile Texas political figures
and President Bush's chief political aide, Karl Rove. "
"Records show that the group received the bulk of its initial
financing from two men with ties to the president and his family - one
a longtime political associate of Mr. Rove's, the other a trustee of
the foundation for Mr. Bush's father's presidential library."
"Mr. Rove, Mr. Bush's top political aide, recently said through a
spokeswoman that he and Mr. Perry were longtime friends"
"Mr. Perry, who has given $200,000 to the group, is the top donor to
Republicans in the state"
"He donated $46,000 to President Bush's campaigns for governor in 1994
and 1998. In the 2002 election, the group said, he donated nearly $4
million to Texas candidates and political committees."
"Mr. Crow, the seventh-largest donor to Republicans "
"In 2000, Ms. Spaeth was spokeswoman for a group that ran $2 million
worth of ads attacking Senator John McCain's environmental record and
lauding Mr. Bush's in crucial states during their fierce primary
battle. The group, calling itself Republicans for Clean Air, was
founded by a prominent Texas supporter of Mr. Bush, Sam Wyly."
"Ms. Spaeth had been a communications official in the Reagan White
House, where the president's aides had enough confidence in her to
invite her to help prepare George Bush for his vice-presidential
debate in 1984. She says she is also a close friend of Senator Kay
Bailey Hutchison of Texas, a client of Mr. Rove's."
"When asked if she had ever visited the White House during Mr. Bush's
tenure, Ms. Spaeth initially said that she had been there only once,
in 2002, when Kenneth Starr gave her a personal tour. But this week
Ms. Spaeth acknowledged that she had spent an hour in the Old
Executive Office Building, part of the White House complex, in the
spring of 2003, giving Mr. Bush's chief economic adviser, Stephen
Friedman, public speaking advice. Asked if it was possible that she
had worked with other administration officials, Ms. Spaeth said, "The
answer is 'no,' unless you refresh my memory.''"
That's good. The answer is "no" unless you prove me wrong.
"Another participant is the political advertising agency that made the
group's television commercial: Stevens Reed Curcio & Potholm, based in
Alexandria, Va. The agency worked for Senator McCain in 2000 and for
Mr. Bush's father in 1988, when it created the "tank" advertisement
mocking Mr. Dukakis. "
"Mr. Elliott, who recommended Mr. Kerry for the Silver Star, had
signed one affidavit saying Mr. Kerry "was not forthright" in the
statements that had led to the award. Two weeks ago, The Boston Globe
quoted him as saying that he felt he should not have signed the
affidavit. "
"The book outlining the veterans' charges, "Unfit for Command: Swift
Boat Veterans Speak Out Against Kerry," has also come under fire. It
is published by Regnery, a conservative company that has published
numerous books critical of Democrats, and written by Mr. O'Neill and
Jerome R. Corsi"
"Mr. Corsi also acknowledged that he has been a contributor of
anti-Catholic, anti-Muslim and anti-Semitic comments "
"Dr. Louis Letson looks into the camera and declares, "I know John
Kerry is lying about his first Purple Heart because I treated him for
that injury." Dr. Letson does not dispute the wound - a piece of
shrapnel above Mr. Kerry's left elbow"
"Yet Dr. Letson's name does not appear on any of the medical records
for Mr. Kerry. Under "person administering treatment" for the injury,
the form is signed by a medic, J. C. Carreon, who died several years
ago. "
"Asked in an interview if there was any way to confirm he had treated
Mr. Kerry, Dr. Letson said, "I guess you'll have to take my word for
it." "
"The group also offers the account of William L. Schachte Jr, ... who
says in the book that he had been on the small skimmer on which Mr.
Kerry was injured that night in December 1968."
"But the two other men who acknowledged that they had been with Mr.
Kerry, Bill Zaladonis and Mr. Runyon, say they cannot recall a third
crew member. "Me and Bill aren't the smartest, but we can count to
three," Mr. Runyon said in an interview. And even Dr. Letson said he
had not recalled Mr. Schachte "
"According to Navy records, he [Kerry] turned the boat to charge the
Vietcong position. An enemy solider sprang from the shore about 10
feet in front of the boat. Mr. Kerry leaped onto the shore, chased the
soldier behind a small hut and killed him, seizing a B-40 rocket
launcher with a round in the chamber."
"Mr. Rassmann, who says he is a Republican, reappeared during the Iowa
caucuses this year to tell his story and support Mr. Kerry"
"Asked why Mr. Rassmann recalled that he was dodging enemy bullets, a
member of the group, Jack Chenoweth, said, "He's lying." "
"Several veterans insist that Mr. Kerry wrote his own reports,
pointing to the initials K. J. W. on one of the reports and saying
they are Mr. Kerry's. "What's the W for, I cannot answer," said Larry
Thurlow,"
"Mr. Kerry's middle initial is F, and a Navy official said the
initials refer to the person who had received the report at
headquarters, not the author"
"A damage report to Mr. Thurlow's boat shows that it received three
bullet holes, suggesting enemy fire, and later intelligence reports
indicate that one Vietcong was killed in action and five others
wounded, reaffirming the presence of an enemy. "
"He [Thurlow] also received a Bronze Star for the day, a fact left out
of "Unfit for Command." "
"a copy obtained by The New York Times indicates "enemy small arms,"
"automatic weapons fire" and "enemy bullets flying about him." "
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.739 / Virus Database: 493 - Release Date: 8/16/2004
Tammy
2004-08-25 14:42:14 UTC
Permalink
No one seems to be surprised that Bush military records were recently
discovered destroyed. The same military records that 10 years ago
people reported hearing the office of Governor Bush order to be
destroyed. Back then, there was no evidence to confirm the claims, now
there is.

What was in those records that Bush ordered destroyed?
Post by Jake M
Post by l***@pacbell.net
WHY DOESN'T KERRY RELEASE HIS MILITARY MEDICAL RECORDS AND PUT THE ENTIRE
ISSUE TO BED?
Why doesn't Bush tell us why he skipped a mandatory flight physical AND
then deserted his post? Those questions are still unanswered from 4
years ago.
Post by l***@pacbell.net
Post by Tammy
Post by Jake M
Post by GWB
Post by John Tibbs
Post by Pizen
Post by Tammy
Don't you find it suspicious that the eyewitness accounts of John
Kerry and the people who were actually on his boat (including the
person whose life John Kerry saved), the military records of the
time
Post by l***@pacbell.net
Post by Tammy
Post by Jake M
Post by GWB
Post by John Tibbs
Post by Pizen
Post by Tammy
(both that of John Kerry's and Thurlow's) all agree with each
other
Post by l***@pacbell.net
Post by Tammy
Post by Jake M
Post by GWB
Post by John Tibbs
Post by Pizen
Post by Tammy
and contradict that of the Swiftboat Vets for Bush? The only
people
Post by l***@pacbell.net
Post by Tammy
Post by Jake M
Post by GWB
Post by John Tibbs
Post by Pizen
Post by Tammy
who are contradicting the military's version of events are paid
GOP
Post by l***@pacbell.net
Post by Tammy
Post by Jake M
Post by GWB
Post by John Tibbs
Post by Pizen
Post by Tammy
operatives. Kindof discredits their alligations, doesn't it?
Where's you documentation that they all were paid since now it's over
500
Post by l***@pacbell.net
Post by Tammy
Post by Jake M
Post by GWB
Post by John Tibbs
and climbing who come vocally and publicly out against Kerry?
Post by Pizen
Yeah, I do have a hard time believing it.
You should, since it's not true but simply damage control spin by
Kerry's
Post by l***@pacbell.net
Post by Tammy
Post by Jake M
Post by GWB
Post by John Tibbs
surrogates.
jt
Gotta admit it was cool of them to get Thurlow to lie like that.
Did Thurlow say when he'd be sending his undeserved bronze star back to
the Navy?
Yeah, I didn't think so.
"A veteran who disputed Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry's
Vietnam war record acknowledged on Sunday he had no proof to back his
charge that Kerry fabricated the reports of enemy fire that won him
two medals."
""I do not have a single document," Odell said. "
"Odell said he had met with Republican strategist Merrie Spaeth, a
public relations consultant to his group, and once bought a home from
Bob Perry, a large Republican donor from Texas and close associate of
Karl Rove, the president's chief political adviser. "
Isn't it funny how only people closely associated with Bush and his
handlers ever have damning information? Again, without any evidence.
"Republican Sen. Pat Roberts of Kansas, chairman of the Senate
intelligence committee, said while the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth
group had "every right" to express their opinion, "we ought to get out
of the character assassination business." "
Hey, could it be? A GOP member with integrity enough to attack his own
party in the interest of truth?
"The Bush campaign has acknowledged that Ken Cordier, a Vietnam
veteran who appeared in a Swift Boat Veterans for Truth commercial,
had been working with the campaign"
No surprise there.
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/reuters20040822_232.html
----------------
"A series of interviews and a review of documents show a web of
connections to the Bush family, high-profile Texas political figures
and President Bush's chief political aide, Karl Rove. "
"Records show that the group received the bulk of its initial
financing from two men with ties to the president and his family - one
a longtime political associate of Mr. Rove's, the other a trustee of
the foundation for Mr. Bush's father's presidential library."
"Mr. Rove, Mr. Bush's top political aide, recently said through a
spokeswoman that he and Mr. Perry were longtime friends"
"Mr. Perry, who has given $200,000 to the group, is the top donor to
Republicans in the state"
"He donated $46,000 to President Bush's campaigns for governor in 1994
and 1998. In the 2002 election, the group said, he donated nearly $4
million to Texas candidates and political committees."
"Mr. Crow, the seventh-largest donor to Republicans "
"In 2000, Ms. Spaeth was spokeswoman for a group that ran $2 million
worth of ads attacking Senator John McCain's environmental record and
lauding Mr. Bush's in crucial states during their fierce primary
battle. The group, calling itself Republicans for Clean Air, was
founded by a prominent Texas supporter of Mr. Bush, Sam Wyly."
"Ms. Spaeth had been a communications official in the Reagan White
House, where the president's aides had enough confidence in her to
invite her to help prepare George Bush for his vice-presidential
debate in 1984. She says she is also a close friend of Senator Kay
Bailey Hutchison of Texas, a client of Mr. Rove's."
"When asked if she had ever visited the White House during Mr. Bush's
tenure, Ms. Spaeth initially said that she had been there only once,
in 2002, when Kenneth Starr gave her a personal tour. But this week
Ms. Spaeth acknowledged that she had spent an hour in the Old
Executive Office Building, part of the White House complex, in the
spring of 2003, giving Mr. Bush's chief economic adviser, Stephen
Friedman, public speaking advice. Asked if it was possible that she
had worked with other administration officials, Ms. Spaeth said, "The
answer is 'no,' unless you refresh my memory.''"
That's good. The answer is "no" unless you prove me wrong.
"Another participant is the political advertising agency that made the
group's television commercial: Stevens Reed Curcio & Potholm, based in
Alexandria, Va. The agency worked for Senator McCain in 2000 and for
Mr. Bush's father in 1988, when it created the "tank" advertisement
mocking Mr. Dukakis. "
"Mr. Elliott, who recommended Mr. Kerry for the Silver Star, had
signed one affidavit saying Mr. Kerry "was not forthright" in the
statements that had led to the award. Two weeks ago, The Boston Globe
quoted him as saying that he felt he should not have signed the
affidavit. "
"The book outlining the veterans' charges, "Unfit for Command: Swift
Boat Veterans Speak Out Against Kerry," has also come under fire. It
is published by Regnery, a conservative company that has published
numerous books critical of Democrats, and written by Mr. O'Neill and
Jerome R. Corsi"
"Mr. Corsi also acknowledged that he has been a contributor of
anti-Catholic, anti-Muslim and anti-Semitic comments "
"Dr. Louis Letson looks into the camera and declares, "I know John
Kerry is lying about his first Purple Heart because I treated him for
that injury." Dr. Letson does not dispute the wound - a piece of
shrapnel above Mr. Kerry's left elbow"
"Yet Dr. Letson's name does not appear on any of the medical records
for Mr. Kerry. Under "person administering treatment" for the injury,
the form is signed by a medic, J. C. Carreon, who died several years
ago. "
"Asked in an interview if there was any way to confirm he had treated
Mr. Kerry, Dr. Letson said, "I guess you'll have to take my word for
it." "
"The group also offers the account of William L. Schachte Jr, ... who
says in the book that he had been on the small skimmer on which Mr.
Kerry was injured that night in December 1968."
"But the two other men who acknowledged that they had been with Mr.
Kerry, Bill Zaladonis and Mr. Runyon, say they cannot recall a third
crew member. "Me and Bill aren't the smartest, but we can count to
three," Mr. Runyon said in an interview. And even Dr. Letson said he
had not recalled Mr. Schachte "
"According to Navy records, he [Kerry] turned the boat to charge the
Vietcong position. An enemy solider sprang from the shore about 10
feet in front of the boat. Mr. Kerry leaped onto the shore, chased the
soldier behind a small hut and killed him, seizing a B-40 rocket
launcher with a round in the chamber."
"Mr. Rassmann, who says he is a Republican, reappeared during the Iowa
caucuses this year to tell his story and support Mr. Kerry"
"Asked why Mr. Rassmann recalled that he was dodging enemy bullets, a
member of the group, Jack Chenoweth, said, "He's lying." "
"Several veterans insist that Mr. Kerry wrote his own reports,
pointing to the initials K. J. W. on one of the reports and saying
they are Mr. Kerry's. "What's the W for, I cannot answer," said Larry
Thurlow,"
"Mr. Kerry's middle initial is F, and a Navy official said the
initials refer to the person who had received the report at
headquarters, not the author"
"A damage report to Mr. Thurlow's boat shows that it received three
bullet holes, suggesting enemy fire, and later intelligence reports
indicate that one Vietcong was killed in action and five others
wounded, reaffirming the presence of an enemy. "
"He [Thurlow] also received a Bronze Star for the day, a fact left out
of "Unfit for Command." "
"a copy obtained by The New York Times indicates "enemy small arms,"
"automatic weapons fire" and "enemy bullets flying about him." "
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.739 / Virus Database: 493 - Release Date: 8/16/2004
George Leroy Tyrebiter, Jr.
2004-08-23 21:20:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tammy
Post by Jake M
Post by GWB
Post by John Tibbs
Post by Pizen
Post by Tammy
Don't you find it suspicious that the eyewitness accounts of John
Kerry and the people who were actually on his boat (including the
person whose life John Kerry saved), the military records of the
time
Post by GWB
Post by John Tibbs
Post by Pizen
Post by Tammy
(both that of John Kerry's and Thurlow's) all agree with each other
and contradict that of the Swiftboat Vets for Bush? The only people
who are contradicting the military's version of events are paid GOP
operatives. Kindof discredits their alligations, doesn't it?
Where's you documentation that they all were paid since now it's over 500
and climbing who come vocally and publicly out against Kerry?
Post by Pizen
Yeah, I do have a hard time believing it.
You should, since it's not true but simply damage control spin by Kerry's
surrogates.
jt
Gotta admit it was cool of them to get Thurlow to lie like that.
Did Thurlow say when he'd be sending his undeserved bronze star back to
the Navy?
Yeah, I didn't think so.
"A veteran who disputed Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry's
Vietnam war record acknowledged on Sunday he had no proof to back his
charge that Kerry fabricated the reports of enemy fire that won him
two medals."
""I do not have a single document," Odell said. "
"Odell said he had met with Republican strategist Merrie Spaeth, a
public relations consultant to his group, and once bought a home from
Bob Perry, a large Republican donor from Texas and close associate of
Karl Rove, the president's chief political adviser. "
Isn't it funny how only people closely associated with Bush and his
handlers ever have damning information? Again, without any evidence.
The Portland Oreganian interviewed one of the guys speaking in the
smearvet ad. He says "I served with John Kerry. He lied about his
record."

He told the Oregonian that he had no personal knowledge to back up
what he said. THree of the core group of smearvets told him that Kerry
had lied about the Bronze star events and he believed them. That is
why he said what he did.

That's misleading and dishonest.

Especially since the Bronze Star story is now blowing up bigtime in
the faces of the Smearvets.

A guy working in a factory in Kansas came forward - he was on the boat
right behind Kerry. He says they were taking fire from both banks. He
recalls the distinctive sound of AK47s.

Clack clack clack he said.

Guy in Colorado on that same boat wrote to the editor of the Telluride
paper - said the Repubs are lying. That anybody who says they weren't
being shot at wasn't on the same river he was on that day.

Conference call to reporters from three OFFICERS including the
Colorado guy say Kerry was right. I don't think Kerry had any other
officers on his boat. So it's TWO MORE OFFICERS saying smearvets are
lying.

One of the editors of the Chicago Tribune has come forward, written a
1700 page article about what happened in the Silver Star episode. He
was the leader of one of the three boats. Kerry told truth, smearvets
lied. Not only that but the HEAD of the smearvets, the "old man"
Hoffman who is running the show, RAVED about what Kerry did at the
time.

Now he is telling a totally different story.

ONEILL - wasn't shooting. None of our boats had any bullet holes. Not
a single one.

WASH Post calls his bluff. Gets damage reports. Smearvet Thurlow's
boat, day after, three bullet holes.

NY TImes gets docs. Intelligence report. Kerry didn't write that baby.
At the site afterwords a dead vietcong five wounded VC. Sounds like a
shoot out to me. How about to you?

Wash Post asks smearvet Thurlow for his medal citation, to see what it
said happened. He "lost it" he says. OK, fill out form so we can get a
copy from the Navy. Nope says Thurlow. ??????


They FOIA it and get it - INCOMING FIRE

So smearvets have to expain that baby. Hey - KERRY MUST HAVE WRITTEN
the after-action report. So what? the medals require INDEpENDENT
corroboration by witnesses.

ThIRD CITATION arrives from FOIA to the Nation. Guy on Thurlow boat
also gets Bronze Star. INCOMING FIRE. Paper work says that the WITNESS
PROVING THURLOWs citation - Lambert, not Kerry. A guy on Thurlow's
boat.

Cambodia. Kerry kept a journal in Viet Nam. Gave it to Brinkley to
write his history. Has three different entries about going into
Cambodia.

One to insert a CIA guy.

Sounds like confirmation from a writing at the time re the hat.
Post by Tammy
"Republican Sen. Pat Roberts of Kansas, chairman of the Senate
intelligence committee, said while the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth
group had "every right" to express their opinion, "we ought to get out
of the character assassination business." "
Hey, could it be? A GOP member with integrity enough to attack his own
party in the interest of truth?
"The Bush campaign has acknowledged that Ken Cordier, a Vietnam
veteran who appeared in a Swift Boat Veterans for Truth commercial,
had been working with the campaign"
No surprise there.
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/reuters20040822_232.html
----------------
"A series of interviews and a review of documents show a web of
connections to the Bush family, high-profile Texas political figures
and President Bush's chief political aide, Karl Rove. "
"Records show that the group received the bulk of its initial
financing from two men with ties to the president and his family - one
a longtime political associate of Mr. Rove's, the other a trustee of
the foundation for Mr. Bush's father's presidential library."
"Mr. Rove, Mr. Bush's top political aide, recently said through a
spokeswoman that he and Mr. Perry were longtime friends"
"Mr. Perry, who has given $200,000 to the group, is the top donor to
Republicans in the state"
"He donated $46,000 to President Bush's campaigns for governor in 1994
and 1998. In the 2002 election, the group said, he donated nearly $4
million to Texas candidates and political committees."
"Mr. Crow, the seventh-largest donor to Republicans "
"In 2000, Ms. Spaeth was spokeswoman for a group that ran $2 million
worth of ads attacking Senator John McCain's environmental record and
lauding Mr. Bush's in crucial states during their fierce primary
battle. The group, calling itself Republicans for Clean Air, was
founded by a prominent Texas supporter of Mr. Bush, Sam Wyly."
"Ms. Spaeth had been a communications official in the Reagan White
House, where the president's aides had enough confidence in her to
invite her to help prepare George Bush for his vice-presidential
debate in 1984. She says she is also a close friend of Senator Kay
Bailey Hutchison of Texas, a client of Mr. Rove's."
"When asked if she had ever visited the White House during Mr. Bush's
tenure, Ms. Spaeth initially said that she had been there only once,
in 2002, when Kenneth Starr gave her a personal tour. But this week
Ms. Spaeth acknowledged that she had spent an hour in the Old
Executive Office Building, part of the White House complex, in the
spring of 2003, giving Mr. Bush's chief economic adviser, Stephen
Friedman, public speaking advice. Asked if it was possible that she
had worked with other administration officials, Ms. Spaeth said, "The
answer is 'no,' unless you refresh my memory.''"
That's good. The answer is "no" unless you prove me wrong.
"Another participant is the political advertising agency that made the
group's television commercial: Stevens Reed Curcio & Potholm, based in
Alexandria, Va. The agency worked for Senator McCain in 2000 and for
Mr. Bush's father in 1988, when it created the "tank" advertisement
mocking Mr. Dukakis. "
"Mr. Elliott, who recommended Mr. Kerry for the Silver Star, had
signed one affidavit saying Mr. Kerry "was not forthright" in the
statements that had led to the award. Two weeks ago, The Boston Globe
quoted him as saying that he felt he should not have signed the
affidavit. "
"The book outlining the veterans' charges, "Unfit for Command: Swift
Boat Veterans Speak Out Against Kerry," has also come under fire. It
is published by Regnery, a conservative company that has published
numerous books critical of Democrats, and written by Mr. O'Neill and
Jerome R. Corsi"
"Mr. Corsi also acknowledged that he has been a contributor of
anti-Catholic, anti-Muslim and anti-Semitic comments "
"Dr. Louis Letson looks into the camera and declares, "I know John
Kerry is lying about his first Purple Heart because I treated him for
that injury." Dr. Letson does not dispute the wound - a piece of
shrapnel above Mr. Kerry's left elbow"
"Yet Dr. Letson's name does not appear on any of the medical records
for Mr. Kerry. Under "person administering treatment" for the injury,
the form is signed by a medic, J. C. Carreon, who died several years
ago. "
"Asked in an interview if there was any way to confirm he had treated
Mr. Kerry, Dr. Letson said, "I guess you'll have to take my word for
it." "
"The group also offers the account of William L. Schachte Jr, ... who
says in the book that he had been on the small skimmer on which Mr.
Kerry was injured that night in December 1968."
"But the two other men who acknowledged that they had been with Mr.
Kerry, Bill Zaladonis and Mr. Runyon, say they cannot recall a third
crew member. "Me and Bill aren't the smartest, but we can count to
three," Mr. Runyon said in an interview. And even Dr. Letson said he
had not recalled Mr. Schachte "
"According to Navy records, he [Kerry] turned the boat to charge the
Vietcong position. An enemy solider sprang from the shore about 10
feet in front of the boat. Mr. Kerry leaped onto the shore, chased the
soldier behind a small hut and killed him, seizing a B-40 rocket
launcher with a round in the chamber."
"Mr. Rassmann, who says he is a Republican, reappeared during the Iowa
caucuses this year to tell his story and support Mr. Kerry"
"Asked why Mr. Rassmann recalled that he was dodging enemy bullets, a
member of the group, Jack Chenoweth, said, "He's lying." "
"Several veterans insist that Mr. Kerry wrote his own reports,
pointing to the initials K. J. W. on one of the reports and saying
they are Mr. Kerry's. "What's the W for, I cannot answer," said Larry
Thurlow,"
"Mr. Kerry's middle initial is F, and a Navy official said the
initials refer to the person who had received the report at
headquarters, not the author"
"A damage report to Mr. Thurlow's boat shows that it received three
bullet holes, suggesting enemy fire, and later intelligence reports
indicate that one Vietcong was killed in action and five others
wounded, reaffirming the presence of an enemy. "
"He [Thurlow] also received a Bronze Star for the day, a fact left out
of "Unfit for Command." "
"a copy obtained by The New York Times indicates "enemy small arms,"
"automatic weapons fire" and "enemy bullets flying about him." "
George Leroy Tyrebiter, Jr.
2004-08-20 02:15:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Tibbs
Where's you documentation that they all were paid since now it's over 500
and climbing who come vocally and publicly out against Kerry?
492 have no role in witnessing anything.

They are republicans. So what?

I have a list of 4000 scientists opposed to Bush.


THe funding is Republican, many are along for the ride.


All records from the time, all of them, support Kerry.

The smearboat vets when they made records at the time - always praised
Kerry.

Then 35 years later some are Republicans, mad that Kerry opposed the
war, and say - Kerry's no good.

It's about 35 years too late.

They should not have praised Kerry at the time, they should not have
prepared docs at the time consistent with Kerry's side, if they wanted
us to believe them.

The smearvet claims are not corroborated.

The Kerry claims are.

It's easy to say 35 years later that you remember something.

Can you really remember?

maybe. Maybe not.

But far more reliable are the docs at the time.

And remember, Nixon was out to get Kerry and looked high and low for
evidence Kerry was a scoundrel. EVen back then, so close to the
events, he could not find a single thing to show Kerry wasn't a hero.

Nixon looked. Up one side down the other._

Nope.

THere is zero real evidence for the claims of these old coots popping
off after decades.
George Leroy Tyrebiter, Jr.
2004-08-20 02:09:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pizen
Post by Tammy
Don't you find it suspicious that the eyewitness accounts of John
Kerry and the people who were actually on his boat (including the
person whose life John Kerry saved), the military records of the
time
Post by Tammy
(both that of John Kerry's and Thurlow's) all agree with each other
and contradict that of the Swiftboat Vets for Bush? The only people
who are contradicting the military's version of events are paid GOP
operatives. Kindof discredits their alligations, doesn't it?
Yeah, I do have a hard time believing it. And a previous poster had
it right - it smacks of Karl Rove politics (I do remember the Bush's
campaign smearing McCain and it was insidious). I mean, it's not like
there's not ample opportunity to attack Senator Kerry's positions on a
variety of topics that his service in the 'Nam has to be attacked as
well. I don't care if he rode around in the boat to only get
splinters in his butt - he was there, which is a lot more than you can
say for a lot of guys.
Bush family politics, all the way back to Connecticut. Always the
smear, always someone allegedly not part of the official campaign.
Michael Marxist Moore
2004-08-19 16:11:28 UTC
Permalink
John Kerry is advised to keep fruit cake wife under wraps or in a
cage! LIBERALS HATE AMERICA!!



Concerns that her huge unfavorable rating could spill over onto her
husband. This was the advice of a former Clinton advisor.

October 2003: Kerry Calls Fence Barrier To Peace. And I know how
disheartened Palestinians are by the
Israeli government’s decision to build a barrier off the green line,
cutting deeply into Palestinian areas.
We do not need another barrier to peace. Provocative and
counterproductive measures only harm Israel’s
security over the long- term, they increase hardships to the
Palestinian people, and they make the process
of negotiating an eventual settlement that much harder. (Sen. John
Kerry, Remarks Before Arab American
Institute National Leadership Conference, Dearborn, MI, 10/17/03)

February 2004: Kerry Calls Fence Legitimate Act Of Self-Defense. US
Senator John Kerry of Massachusetts, the frontrunner in the race for
the Democratic presidential nomination, described Israel’s
construction of a security barrier as a ‘legitimate act of self
defense’ after Sunday’s suicide bombing in Jerusalem, clarifying a
position he took in October when he told an Arab American audience ‘We
don’t need another barrier to peace.’ (Janine Zacharia, Kerry Defends
Security Fence, The Jerusalem Post, 2/25/04)



-----------
Liberals Hate America!
George Leroy Tyrebiter, Jr.
2004-08-20 02:44:13 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:11:28 -0400, Michael Marxist Moore
Post by Michael Marxist Moore
John Kerry is advised to keep fruit cake wife under wraps or in a
cage! LIBERALS HATE AMERICA!!
Republicans wonder why they lose among female voters.

Are they dense or what?
Jim
2004-08-21 10:51:01 UTC
Permalink
October 2003: Kerry Calls Fence Barrier To Peace. And I know how
disheartened Palestinians are by the
Israeli government's decision to build a barrier off the green line,
cutting deeply into Palestinian areas.
We do not need another barrier to peace. Provocative and
counterproductive measures only harm Israel's
security over the long- term, they increase hardships to the
Palestinian people, and they make the process
of negotiating an eventual settlement that much harder. (Sen. John
Kerry, Remarks Before Arab American
Institute National Leadership Conference, Dearborn, MI, 10/17/03)

February 2004: Kerry Calls Fence Legitimate Act Of Self-Defense. US
Senator John Kerry of Massachusetts, the frontrunner in the race for
the Democratic presidential nomination, described Israel's
construction of a security barrier as a 'legitimate act of self
defense' after Sunday's suicide bombing in Jerusalem, clarifying a
position he took in October when he told an Arab American audience 'We
don't need another barrier to peace.' (Janine Zacharia, Kerry Defends
Security Fence, The Jerusalem Post, 2/25/04)
Fester
2004-08-21 15:20:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Marxist Moore
October 2003: Kerry Calls Fence Barrier To Peace. And I know how
disheartened Palestinians are by the
Israeli government's decision to build a barrier off the green line,
cutting deeply into Palestinian areas.
We do not need another barrier to peace. Provocative and
counterproductive measures only harm Israel's
security over the long- term, they increase hardships to the
Palestinian people, and they make the process
of negotiating an eventual settlement that much harder. (Sen. John
Kerry, Remarks Before Arab American
Institute National Leadership Conference, Dearborn, MI, 10/17/03)
February 2004: Kerry Calls Fence Legitimate Act Of Self-Defense. US
Senator John Kerry of Massachusetts, the frontrunner in the race for
the Democratic presidential nomination, described Israel's
construction of a security barrier as a 'legitimate act of self
defense' after Sunday's suicide bombing in Jerusalem, clarifying a
position he took in October when he told an Arab American audience 'We
don't need another barrier to peace.' (Janine Zacharia, Kerry Defends
Security Fence, The Jerusalem Post, 2/25/04)
And the only thing that changed in the interim was that one of those
kangaroo world courts (I can't be bothered to keep track of which ones did
which when), that Kerry loves so much, ruled that the fence was mean to the
poor terroristos.
Fester
2004-08-21 20:40:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fester
Post by Michael Marxist Moore
October 2003: Kerry Calls Fence Barrier To Peace. And I know how
disheartened Palestinians are by the
Israeli government's decision to build a barrier off the green line,
cutting deeply into Palestinian areas.
We do not need another barrier to peace. Provocative and
counterproductive measures only harm Israel's
security over the long- term, they increase hardships to the
Palestinian people, and they make the process
of negotiating an eventual settlement that much harder. (Sen. John
Kerry, Remarks Before Arab American
Institute National Leadership Conference, Dearborn, MI, 10/17/03)
February 2004: Kerry Calls Fence Legitimate Act Of Self-Defense. US
Senator John Kerry of Massachusetts, the frontrunner in the race for
the Democratic presidential nomination, described Israel's
construction of a security barrier as a 'legitimate act of self
defense' after Sunday's suicide bombing in Jerusalem, clarifying a
position he took in October when he told an Arab American audience 'We
don't need another barrier to peace.' (Janine Zacharia, Kerry Defends
Security Fence, The Jerusalem Post, 2/25/04)
And the only thing that changed in the interim was that one of those
kangaroo world courts (I can't be bothered to keep track of which ones did
which when), that Kerry loves so much, ruled that the fence was mean to the
poor terroristos.
"The World Court." Where nations go to settle disputes instead of going
to
war.
TY. Have they prevented ny wars?
George Leroy Tyrebiter, Jr.
2004-08-22 02:28:13 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 10:51:01 GMT, "Jim"
Post by Michael Marxist Moore
October 2003: Kerry Calls Fence Barrier To Peace. And I know how
disheartened Palestinians are by the
Israeli government's decision to build a barrier off the green line,
cutting deeply into Palestinian areas.
We do not need another barrier to peace. Provocative and
counterproductive measures only harm Israel's
security over the long- term, they increase hardships to the
Palestinian people, and they make the process
of negotiating an eventual settlement that much harder. (Sen. John
Kerry, Remarks Before Arab American
Institute National Leadership Conference, Dearborn, MI, 10/17/03)
February 2004: Kerry Calls Fence Legitimate Act Of Self-Defense. US
Senator John Kerry of Massachusetts, the frontrunner in the race for
the Democratic presidential nomination, described Israel's
construction of a security barrier as a 'legitimate act of self
defense' after Sunday's suicide bombing in Jerusalem, clarifying a
position he took in October when he told an Arab American audience 'We
don't need another barrier to peace.' (Janine Zacharia, Kerry Defends
Security Fence, The Jerusalem Post, 2/25/04)
1. Social Security Surplus

BUSH PLEDGES NOT TO TOUCH SOCIAL SECURITY SURPLUS... "We're going to
keep the promise of Social Security and keep the government from
raiding the Social Security surplus." [President Bush, 3/3/01]

...BUSH SPENDS SOCIAL SECURITY SURPLUS The New York Times reported
that "the president's new budget uses Social Security surpluses to pay
for other programs every year through 2013, ultimately diverting more
than $1.4 trillion in Social Security funds to other purposes." [The
New York Times, 2/6/02]

2. Patient's Right to Sue

GOVERNOR BUSH VETOES PATIENTS' RIGHT TO SUE... "Despite his campaign
rhetoric in favor of a patients' bill of rights, Bush fought such a
bill tooth and nail as Texas governor, vetoing a bill coauthored by
Republican state Rep. John Smithee in 1995. He... constantly opposed a
patient's right to sue an HMO over coverage denied that resulted in
adverse health effects." [Salon, 2/7/01]

...CANDIDATE BUSH PRAISES TEXAS PATIENTS' RIGHT TO SUE... "We're one
of the first states that said you can sue an HMO for denying you
proper coverage... It's time for our nation to come together and do
what's right for the people. And I think this is right for the people.
You know, I support a national patients' bill of rights, Mr. Vice
President. And I want all people covered. I don't want the law to
supersede good law like we've got in Texas." [Governor Bush, 10/17/00]

...PRESIDENT BUSH'S ADMINISTRATION ARGUES AGAINST RIGHT TO SUE "To let
two Texas consumers, Juan Davila and Ruby R. Calad, sue their
managed-care companies for wrongful denials of medical benefits ‘would
be to completely undermine' federal law regulating employee benefits,
Assistant Solicitor General James A. Feldman said at oral argument
March 23. Moreover, the administration's brief attacked the policy
rationale for Texas's law, which is similar to statutes on the books
in nine other states." [Washington Post, 4/5/04]

3. Tobacco Buyout

BUSH SUPPORTS CURRENT TOBACCO FARMERS' QUOTA SYSTEM... "They've got
the quota system in place -- the allotment system -- and I don't think
that needs to be changed." [President Bush, 5/04]

...BUSH ADMINISTRATION WILL SUPPORT FEDERAL BUYOUT OF TOBACCO QUOTAS
"The administration is open to a buyout." [White House spokeswoman
Jeanie Mamo, 6/18/04]

4. North Korea

BUSH WILL NOT OFFER NUCLEAR NORTH KOREA INCENTIVES TO DISARM... "We
developed a bold approach under which, if the North addressed our
long-standing concerns, the United States was prepared to take
important steps that would have significantly improved the lives of
the North Korean people. Now that North Korea's covert nuclear weapons
program has come to light, we are unable to pursue this approach."
[President's Statement, 11/15/02]

...BUSH ADMINISTRATION OFFERS NORTH KOREA INCENTIVES TO DISARM"Well,
we will work to take steps to ease their political and economic
isolation. So there would be -- what you would see would be some
provisional or temporary proposals that would only lead to lasting
benefit after North Korea dismantles its nuclear programs. So there
would be some provisional or temporary efforts of that nature." [White
House Press Secretary Scott McClellan, 6/23/04]

5. Abortion

BUSH SUPPORTS A WOMAN'S RIGHT TO CHOOSE... "Bush said he...favors
leaving up to a woman and her doctor the abortion question." [The
Nation, 6/15/00, quoting the Lubbock Avalanche-Journal, 5/78]

...BUSH OPPOSES A WOMAN'S RIGHT TO CHOOSE "I am pro-life." [Governor
Bush, 10/3/00]

6. OPEC

BUSH PROMISES TO FORCE OPEC TO LOWER PRICES... "What I think the
president ought to do [when gas prices spike] is he ought to get on
the phone with the OPEC cartel and say we expect you to open your
spigots...And the president of the United States must jawbone OPEC
members to lower the price." [President Bush, 1/26/00]

...BUSH REFUSES TO LOBBY OPEC LEADERS With gas prices soaring in the
United States at the beginning of 2004, the Miami Herald reported the
president refused to "personally lobby oil cartel leaders to change
their minds." [Miami Herald, 4/1/04]

7. Iraq Funding

BUSH SPOKESMAN DENIES NEED FOR ADDITIONAL FUNDS FOR THE REST OF
2004... "We do not anticipate requesting supplemental funding for '04"
[White House Budget Director Joshua Bolton, 2/2/04]

...BUSH REQUESTS ADDITIONAL FUNDS FOR IRAQ FOR 2004 "I am requesting
that Congress establish a $25 billion contingency reserve fund for the
coming fiscal year to meet all commitments to our troops." [President
Bush, Statement by President, 5/5/04]

8. Condoleeza Rice Testimony

BUSH SPOKESMAN SAYS RICE WON'T TESTIFY AS 'A MATTER OF PRINCIPLE'...
"Again, this is not her personal preference; this goes back to a
matter of principle. There is a separation of powers issue involved
here. Historically, White House staffers do not testify before
legislative bodies. So it's a matter of principle, not a matter of
preference." [White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan, 3/9/04]

...BUSH ORDERS RICE TO TESTIFY: "Today I have informed the Commission
on Terrorist Attacks Against the United States that my National
Security Advisor, Dr. Condoleezza Rice, will provide public
testimony." [President Bush, 3/30/04]

9. Science

BUSH PLEDGES TO ISSUE REGULATIONS BASED ON SCIENCE..."I think we ought
to have high standards set by agencies that rely upon science, not by
what may feel good or what sounds good." [then-Governor George W.
Bush, 1/15/00]

...BUSH ADMINISTRATION REGULATIONS IGNORE SCIENCE "60 leading
scientists—including Nobel laureates, leading medical experts, former
federal agency directors and university chairs and presidents—issued a
statement calling for regulatory and legislative action to restore
scientific integrity to federal policymaking. According to the
scientists, the Bush administration has, among other abuses,
suppressed and distorted scientific analysis from federal agencies,
and taken actions that have undermined the quality of scientific
advisory panels." [Union of Concerned Scientists, 2/18/04]

10. Ahmed Chalabi

BUSH INVITES CHALABI TO STATE OF THE UNION ADDRESS...President Bush
also met with Chalabi during his brief trip to Iraq last Thanksgiving
[White House Documents 1/20/04, 11/27/03]

...BUSH MILITARY ASSISTS IN RAID OF CHALABI'S HOUSE "U.S. soldiers
raided the home of America's one-time ally Ahmad Chalabi on Thursday
and seized documents and computers." [Washington Post, 5/20/04]

11. Department of Homeland Security

BUSH OPPOSES THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY..."So, creating a
Cabinet office doesn't solve the problem. You still will have agencies
within the federal government that have to be coordinated. So the
answer is that creating a Cabinet post doesn't solve anything." [White
House spokesman Ari Fleischer, 3/19/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY "So tonight, I
ask the Congress to join me in creating a single, permanent department
with an overriding and urgent mission: securing the homeland of
America and protecting the American people." [President Bush, Address
to the Nation, 6/6/02]

12. Weapons of Mass Destruction

BUSH SAYS WE FOUND THE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION..."We found the
weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories...for
those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or
banned weapons, they're wrong, we found them." [President Bush,
Interview in Poland, 5/29/03]

...BUSH SAYS WE HAVEN'T FOUND WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION "David Kay
has found the capacity to produce weapons.And when David Kay goes in
and says we haven't found stockpiles yet, and there's theories as to
where the weapons went. They could have been destroyed during the war.
Saddam and his henchmen could have destroyed them as we entered into
Iraq. They could be hidden. They could have been transported to
another country, and we'll find out." [President Bush, Meet the Press,
2/7/04]

13. Free Trade

BUSH SUPPORTS FREE TRADE... "I believe strongly that if we promote
trade, and when we promote trade, it will help workers on both sides
of this issue." [President Bush in Peru, 3/23/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS RESTRICTIONS ON TRADE "In a decision largely driven
by his political advisers, President Bush set aside his free-trade
principles last year and imposed heavy tariffs on imported steel to
help out struggling mills in Pennsylvania and West Virginia, two
states crucial for his reelection." [Washington Post, 9/19/03]

14. Osama Bin Laden

BUSH WANTS OSAMA DEAD OR ALIVE... "I want justice. And there's an old
poster out West, I recall, that says, 'Wanted: Dead or Alive.'"
[President Bush, on Osama Bin Laden, 09/17/01]

...BUSH DOESN'T CARE ABOUT OSAMA "I don't know where he is.You know, I
just don't spend that much time on him... I truly am not that
concerned about him."[President Bush, Press Conference, 3/13/02]

15. The Environment

BUSH SUPPORTS MANDATORY CAPS ON CARBON DIOXIDE... "[If elected],
Governor Bush will work to...establish mandatory reduction targets for
emissions of four main pollutants: sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxide,
mercury and carbon dioxide." [Bush Environmental Plan, 9/29/00]

...BUSH OPPOSES MANDATORY CAPS ON CARBON DIOXIDE "I do not believe,
however, that the government should impose on power plants mandatory
emissions reductions for carbon dioxide, which is not a 'pollutant'
under the Clean Air Act." [President Bush, Letter to Sen. Chuck Hagel
(R-NE), 3/13/03]

16. WMD Commission

BUSH RESISTS AN OUTSIDE INVESTIGATION ON WMD INTELLIGENCE FAILURE...
"The White House immediately turned aside the calls from Kay and many
Democrats for an immediate outside investigation, seeking to head off
any new wide-ranging election-year inquiry that might go beyond
reports already being assembled by congressional committees and the
Central Intelligence Agency." [NY Times, 1/29/04]

...BUSH SUPPORTS AN OUTSIDE INVESTIGATION ON WMD INTELLIGENCE FAILURE
"Today, by executive order, I am creating an independent commission,
chaired by Governor and former Senator Chuck Robb, Judge Laurence
Silberman, to look at American intelligence capabilities, especially
our intelligence about weapons of mass destruction." [President Bush,
2/6/04]

17. Creation of the 9/11 Commission

BUSH OPPOSES CREATION OF INDEPENDENT 9/11 COMMISSION... "President
Bush took a few minutes during his trip to Europe Thursday to voice
his opposition to establishing a special commission to probe how the
government dealt with terror warnings before Sept. 11." [CBS News,
5/23/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS CREATION OF INDEPENDENT 9/11 COMMISSION "President
Bush said today he now supports establishing an independent commission
to investigate the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks." [ABC News, 09/20/02]

18. Time Extension for 9/11 Commission

BUSH OPPOSES TIME EXTENSION FOR 9/11 COMMISSION... "President Bush and
House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.) have decided to oppose
granting more time to an independent commission investigating the
Sept. 11, 2001, attacks." [Washington Post, 1/19/04]

...BUSH SUPPORTS TIME EXTENSION FOR 9/11 COMMISSION "The White House
announced Wednesday its support for a request from the commission
investigating the September 11, 2001 attacks for more time to complete
its work." [CNN, 2/4/04]

19. One Hour Limit for 9/11 Commission Testimony

BUSH LIMITS TESTIMONY IN FRONT OF 9/11 COMMISSION TO ONE HOUR...
"President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney have placed strict
limits on the private interviews they will grant to the federal
commission investigating the Sept. 11 attacks, saying that they will
meet only with the panel's top two officials and that Mr. Bush will
submit to only a single hour of questioning, commission members said
Wednesday." [NY Times, 2/26/04]

...BUSH SETS NO TIMELIMIT FOR TESTIMONY "The president's going to
answer all of the questions they want to raise. Nobody's watching the
clock." [White House spokesman Scott McClellan, 3/10/04]

20. Gay Marriage

BUSH SAYS GAY MARRIAGE IS A STATE ISSUE... "The state can do what they
want to do. Don't try to trap me in this state's issue like you're
trying to get me into." [Gov. George W. Bush on Gay Marriage, Larry
King Live, 2/15/00]

...BUSH SUPPORTS CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT BANNING GAY MARRIAGE "Today
I call upon the Congress to promptly pass, and to send to the states
for ratification, an amendment to our Constitution defining and
protecting marriage as a union of man and woman as husband and wife."
[President Bush, 2/24/04]

21. Nation Building

BUSH OPPOSES NATION BUILDING... "If we don't stop extending our troops
all around the world in nation-building missions, then we're going to
have a serious problem coming down the road." [Gov. George W. Bush,
10/3/00]

...BUSH SUPPORTS NATION BUILDING "We will be changing the regime of
Iraq, for the good of the Iraqi people." [President Bush, 3/6/03]

22. Saddam/al Qaeda Link

BUSH SAYS IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEEN AL QAEDA AND
SADDAM... "You can't distinguish between al Qaeda and Saddam when you
talk about the war on terror." [President Bush, 9/25/02]

...BUSH SAYS SADDAM HAD NO ROLE IN AL QAEDA PLOT "We've had no
evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved in Sept. 11." [President
Bush, 9/17/03]

23. U.N. Resolution

BUSH VOWS TO HAVE A UN VOTE NO MATTER WHAT... "No matter what the whip
count is, we're calling for the vote. We want to see people stand up
and say what their opinion is about Saddam Hussein and the utility of
the United Nations Security Council. And so, you bet. It's time for
people to show their cards, to let the world know where they stand
when it comes to Saddam." [President Bush 3/6/03]

...BUSH WITHDRAWS REQUEST FOR VOTE "At a National Security Council
meeting convened at the White House at 8:55 a.m., Bush finalized the
decision to withdraw the resolution from consideration and prepared to
deliver an address to the nation that had already been written."
[Washington Post, 3/18/03]

24. Involvement in the Palestinian Conflict

BUSH OPPOSES SUMMITS... "Well, we've tried summits in the past, as you
may remember. It wasn't all that long ago where a summit was called
and nothing happened, and as a result we had significant intifada in
the area." [President Bush, 04/05/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS SUMMITS "If a meeting advances progress toward two
states living side by side in peace, I will strongly consider such a
meeting. I'm committed to working toward peace in the Middle East."
[President Bush, 5/23/03]

25. Campaign Finance

BUSH OPPOSES MCCAIN-FEINGOLD... "George W. Bush opposes
McCain-Feingold...as an infringement on free expression." [Washington
Post, 3/28/2000]

...BUSH SIGNS MCCAIN-FEINGOLD INTO LAW "[T]his bill improves the
current system of financing for Federal campaigns, and therefore I
have signed it into law." [President Bush, at the McCain-Feingold
signing ceremony, 03/27/02]
kstahl
2004-08-22 03:37:45 UTC
Permalink
Are you saying that Bush is flip-flopping. Sure looks like it to
me. Sounds like he is pretty experienced at it as well.
George Leroy Tyrebiter, Jr.
2004-08-22 05:30:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by kstahl
Are you saying that Bush is flip-flopping. Sure looks like it to
me. Sounds like he is pretty experienced at it as well.
yes. Bush has been in public service less time, so his many many
flip-flops need to be adjusted up too to provide a fair comparison to
Kerry
Vash The Stampede
2004-08-21 21:12:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Marxist Moore
John Kerry is advised to keep fruit cake wife under wraps or in a
cage! LIBERALS HATE AMERICA!!
Notice the Ketchup Kween has been out of the spotlight for a few weeks?
They must have told her to Shut Up before she kills all chances of his
election!

Say what you (well, not *you*) will about the Bushes, at least Laura is a
Lady about it!
Post by Michael Marxist Moore
Concerns that her huge unfavorable rating could spill over onto her
husband. This was the advice of a former Clinton advisor.
October 2003: Kerry Calls Fence Barrier To Peace. And I know how
disheartened Palestinians are by the
Israeli government’s decision to build a barrier off the green line,
cutting deeply into Palestinian areas.
We do not need another barrier to peace. Provocative and
counterproductive measures only harm Israel’s
security over the long- term, they increase hardships to the
Palestinian people, and they make the process
of negotiating an eventual settlement that much harder. (Sen. John
Kerry, Remarks Before Arab American
Institute National Leadership Conference, Dearborn, MI, 10/17/03)
February 2004: Kerry Calls Fence Legitimate Act Of Self-Defense. US
Senator John Kerry of Massachusetts, the frontrunner in the race for
the Democratic presidential nomination, described Israel’s
construction of a security barrier as a ‘legitimate act of self
defense’ after Sunday’s suicide bombing in Jerusalem, clarifying a
position he took in October when he told an Arab American audience ‘We
don’t need another barrier to peace.’ (Janine Zacharia, Kerry Defends
Security Fence, The Jerusalem Post, 2/25/04)
-----------
Liberals Hate America!
Jake M
2004-08-22 02:15:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vash The Stampede
Post by Michael Marxist Moore
John Kerry is advised to keep fruit cake wife under wraps or in a
cage! LIBERALS HATE AMERICA!!
Notice the Ketchup Kween has been out of the spotlight for a few weeks?
They must have told her to Shut Up before she kills all chances of his
election!
Say what you (well, not *you*) will about the Bushes, at least Laura is a
Lady about it!
After murdering her high school boyfriend, she had to learn to lay low.
Shannon Jacobs
2004-08-22 03:56:22 UTC
Permalink
Can't tell if this is a new coward, or an old coward under a new pseudonym.
You never know how many mice these chickenshit Busheviks have in their
pockets.

Vash The Stampede <***@2am.cn> wrote:
<snip>
Post by Vash The Stampede
Notice the Ketchup Kween has been out of the spotlight for a few
weeks? They must have told her to Shut Up before she kills all
chances of his election!
Say what you (well, not *you*) will about the Bushes, at least
Laura is a Lady about it!
<snip>
--
We don't know if 9/11 could have been stopped--but we do know Dubya
failed to stop it. That's the FACT.

Attack, lie, spin. Dubya's REAL trifecta.

Hate trolls? Want to be free to ignore them more easily? Write
groups-***@google.com and ask for a search parameter for the # of
newsgroups--with the default set to 1. Bye-bye troll cross-posts!

Do you agree that democracy is good and depends on serious discussion
of the issues? If so, don't reply to off topic, ad hominem garbage.
Send it to "The vile spewers of mindless blather thread".
James Martinez
2004-08-27 22:55:19 UTC
Permalink
Plot thickens after checking records

August 27, 2004

BY THOMAS LIPSCOMB

In the midst of the controversy between the Swift Boat Veterans for
Truth and Kerry campaign representatives about Kerry's service in
Vietnam, new questions have arisen.

The Kerry campaign has repeatedly stated that the official naval
records prove the truth of Kerry's assertions about his service.

But the official records on Kerry's Web site only add to the
confusion. The DD214 form, an official Defense Department document
summarizing Kerry's military career posted on johnkerry.com, includes
a "Silver Star with combat V."

But according to a U.S. Navy spokesman, "Kerry's record is incorrect.
The Navy has never issued a 'combat V' to anyone for a Silver Star."

Naval regulations do not allow for the use of a "combat V" for the
Silver Star, the third-highest decoration the Navy awards. None of the
other services has ever granted a Silver Star "combat V," either.

Fake claims not uncommon


B.G. Burkett, a Vietnam veteran himself, received the highest award
the Army gives to a civilian, the Distinguished Civilian Service
Award, for his book Stolen Valor. Burkett pored through thousands of
military service records, uncovering phony claims of awards and fake
claims of military service. "I've run across several claims for Silver
Stars with combat V's, but they were all in fake records," he said.

Burkett recently filed a complaint that led last month to the
sentencing of Navy Capt. Roger D. Edwards to 115 days in the brig for
falsification of his records.

Kerry's Web site also lists two different citations for the Silver
Star. One was issued by the commander in chief of the Pacific Command
(CINCPAC), Adm. John Hyland. The other, issued by Secretary of the
Navy John Lehman during the Reagan administration, contained some
revisions and additional language. "By his brave actions, bold
initiative, and unwavering devotion to duty, Lieutenant (j.g.) Kerry
reflected great credit upon himself... ."

One award, three citations


But a third citation exists that appears to be the earliest. And it is
not on the Kerry campaign Web site. It was issued by Vice Adm. Elmo
Zumwalt, commander of U.S. naval forces in Vietnam. This citation
lacks the language in the Hyland citation or that added by the Lehman
version, but includes another 170 words in a detailed description of
Kerry's attack on a Viet Cong ambush, his killing of an enemy soldier
carrying a loaded rocket launcher, as well as military equipment
captured and a body count of dead enemy.

Maj. Anthony Milavic, a retired Marine Vietnam veteran, calls the
issuance of three citations for the same medal "bizarre." Milavic
hosts Milinet, an Internet forum popular with the military community
that is intended "to provide a forum in military/political affairs."

Normally in the case of a lost citation, Milavec points out, the
awardee simply asked for a copy to be sent to him from his service
personnel records office where it remains on file. "I have never heard
of multi-citations from three different people for the same medal
award," he said. Nor has Burkett: "It is even stranger to have three
different descriptions of the awardee's conduct in the citations for
the same award."

So far, there are also two varying citations for Kerry's Bronze Star,
one by Zumwalt and the other by Lehman as secretary of the Navy, both
posted on johnkerry.com.

Kerry's Web site also carries a DD215 form revising his DD214, issued
March 12, 2001, which adds four bronze campaign stars to his Vietnam
service medal. The campaign stars are issued for participation in any
of the 17 Department of Defense named campaigns that extended from
1962 to the cease-fire in 1973.

However, according to the Navy spokesman, Kerry should only have two
campaign stars: one for "Counteroffensive, Phase VI," and one for
"Tet69, Counteroffensive."

94 pages of records unreleased?


Reporting by the Washington Post's Michael Dobbs points out that
although the Kerry campaign insists that it has released Kerry's full
military records, the Post was only able to get six pages of records
under its Freedom of Information Act request out of the "at least a
hundred pages" a Naval Personnel Office spokesman called the "full
file."

What could that more than 100 pages contain? Questions have been
raised about President Bush's drill attendance in the reserves, but
Bush received his honorable discharge on schedule. Kerry, who should
have been discharged from the Navy about the same time -- July 1, 1972
-- wasn't given the discharge he has on his campaign Web site until
July 13, 1978. What delayed the discharge for six years? This raises
serious questions about Kerry's performance while in the reserves that
are far more potentially damaging than those raised against Bush.

Burkett, who has spent years working with the FBI, Department of
Justice and all of the military services uncovering fraudulent files
in the official records, is less charitable: "The multiple citations
and variations in the official record are reason for suspicion in
itself, even disregarding the current swift boat veterans'
controversy."
Jake M
2004-08-30 15:52:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Martinez
Plot thickens after checking records
August 27, 2004
BY THOMAS LIPSCOMB
Thomas Lipscomb is a liar: "Questions have been raised about President
Bush's drill attendance in the reserves, but Bush received his honorable
discharge on schedule."

Nope, Bush got an early out. He didn't even hang around to sign his
discharge paper.

Try again, Bushie LIAR.

<snip rest of lies>

Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...