Discussion:
Did GW Bush Lie To Us?
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Trace
2006-06-09 21:44:09 UTC
Permalink
Didn't the President say that the NSA is not spying on us???



Full story:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19025556.200?DCMP=NLC-nletter&nsref=mg19025556.200



New Scientist has discovered that Pentagon's National Security Agency,
which specialises in eavesdropping and code-breaking, is funding
research into the mass harvesting of the information that people post
about themselves on social networks. And it could harness advances in
internet technology - specifically the forthcoming "semantic web"
championed by the web standards organisation W3C - to combine data from
social networking websites with details such as banking, retail and
property records, allowing the NSA to build extensive, all-embracing
personal profiles of individuals.
Trace
2006-06-09 22:01:29 UTC
Permalink
This is all about Myspace.com and other sites that are similar where
people post tons of stuff about themselves. The NSA is going to
"harvest" that info.
Trace
2006-06-10 02:04:08 UTC
Permalink
Some of you are chosing party over common sense.

I voted for GW Bush. I am an Ultra Conservative. Yet, I do not
support government compiling databases on Americans without their
expressed permission. Why would you?
Leythos
2006-06-10 03:33:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Trace
Some of you are chosing party over common sense.
I voted for GW Bush. I am an Ultra Conservative. Yet, I do not
support government compiling databases on Americans without their
expressed permission. Why would you?
I'm not a member of either political party as I don't see where being a
member helps anyone in America.

I have been in the Military, worked in security, been drug tested every
couple months for years, held a high level clearance.....

As a Father, US Citizen, owner of firearms, business owner, I fully
support OUR governments power to track anyone they feel is a security
threat, compile masses of statistics in order to determine trends in
communications that could pinpoint terrorists, monitor anything public,
and to monitor anything private without notification, as long as they
don't go public until they have "evidence" - meaning I don't care if
they read every email, monitor my phones, check my credit, watch my
home/business, as long as they don't get in my way.

In these times, to allow anything less only helps the threat place
itself among our people, often hidden or in open sight, but, because of
the bleeding heart complainers/zealots/foil-hat people, they make the
Job that we've all entrusted our government with all that much harder,
if not also directly tipping off the bad guys that we know something.
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Trace
2006-06-10 07:02:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Leythos
Post by Trace
Some of you are chosing party over common sense.
I voted for GW Bush. I am an Ultra Conservative. Yet, I do not
support government compiling databases on Americans without their
expressed permission. Why would you?
I'm not a member of either political party as I don't see where being a
member helps anyone in America.
I have been in the Military, worked in security, been drug tested every
couple months for years, held a high level clearance.....
As a Father, US Citizen, owner of firearms, business owner, I fully
support OUR governments power to track anyone they feel is a security
threat, compile masses of statistics in order to determine trends in
communications that could pinpoint terrorists, monitor anything public,
and to monitor anything private without notification, as long as they
don't go public until they have "evidence" - meaning I don't care if
they read every email, monitor my phones, check my credit, watch my
home/business, as long as they don't get in my way.
In these times, to allow anything less only helps the threat place
itself among our people, often hidden or in open sight, but, because of
the bleeding heart complainers/zealots/foil-hat people, they make the
Job that we've all entrusted our government with all that much harder,
if not also directly tipping off the bad guys that we know something.
--
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You missed the entire point of this conversation. If you are honest
with yourself, you know that we are moving away from liberty in this
great country of ours. We are allowing fear to justify the reduction
in liberty, and the advancement of intrusive government.

Amazingly, a number of Americans are willing to trade liberty for
security which as you know, in the end, they will have neither.

What this article says is that our government lied to us when it said
that Americans are not in the NSA net. Obviously, we are being watched
closely if the NSA is going to use Myspace.com and similar sites to
datamine for specific bits of data about each of us. In other words,
they are compiling a massive database which contains as much data about
each of us as they can find.

Blind Americans who agree with the above tactics believe that
government is loving, kind, and wonderful, and that it never seeks to
do harm, nor do those who come and go with each administration. All
can be fully trusted with our personal data and our entire lives on
their hard drives and optical storage systems.

Bill clinton used the IRS to atttack his enemies. Over 80 people died
that knew him who had moved to DC from Arkansas. For some reason, lots
of people from Arkansas just met up with the strangest accidents while
in DC during the clinton years.

It is that kind of insane administration that we must fear with our
personal data.
But as a general rule, government is a major threat to freedom in
America. Our founding fathers recognized this fact and openly stated
such as they wrote the government limiting US Constitution. But, it
seems that today, a number of people don't care about liimiting the
power of government. It seems the more power government has, the
happier they are. And that is truly insane.
Not PC
2006-06-10 14:15:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Trace
What this article says is that our government lied to us when it said
that Americans are not in the NSA net. Obviously, we are being watched
closely if the NSA is going to use Myspace.com and similar sites to
datamine for specific bits of data about each of us. In other words,
they are compiling a massive database which contains as much data about
each of us as they can find.
OH MY GAWD!!! You mean the mean, nasty GOVERNMENT has HACKED into
Myspace.com? Er, no, they are just MONITORING the site. A PUBLIC
site. Where PEOPLE post shit about themselves.

Duh.

So, I guess if you want to keep your anonimity, DON'T POST IT ON A
WEBSITE! And get rid of your drivers license, social security card,
telephone, ISP, credit cards, health insurance, utilities, bank
account, cars, trucks, boats, motorcycles, airplanes, real property,
stocks, bonds, etc.

Then find a nice bridge to live under and wrap your head in tinfoil so
they can't "monitor" your thoughts. And stay out of sight. The
invisible black helicopters are always up there and looking for you.
Adam Albright
2006-06-10 15:00:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Not PC
Post by Trace
What this article says is that our government lied to us when it said
that Americans are not in the NSA net. Obviously, we are being watched
closely if the NSA is going to use Myspace.com and similar sites to
datamine for specific bits of data about each of us. In other words,
they are compiling a massive database which contains as much data about
each of us as they can find.
OH MY GAWD!!! You mean the mean, nasty GOVERNMENT has HACKED into
Myspace.com? Er, no, they are just MONITORING the site. A PUBLIC
site. Where PEOPLE post shit about themselves.
Duh.
So, I guess if you want to keep your anonimity, DON'T POST IT ON A
WEBSITE! And get rid of your drivers license, social security card,
telephone, ISP, credit cards, health insurance, utilities, bank
account, cars, trucks, boats, motorcycles, airplanes, real property,
stocks, bonds, etc.
Then find a nice bridge to live under and wrap your head in tinfoil so
they can't "monitor" your thoughts. And stay out of sight. The
invisible black helicopters are always up there and looking for you.
It is because of ignorant people like you that the government gets
away with what it does.

In very simple terms even dummies like you may understand.

Justice Department attempting to block civil suit where Electronic
Frontier Foundation, a long time watchdog group is suing AT&T.

Q. What is the law suit about?

A. A whistle blowing management level AT&T engineer working at one of
AT&T's main switching centers under oath in a civil law suit says
that Ma Bell in San Franciso allowed the NSA to build a secret room
in order for them to plug into virtually all phone and Internet
traffic.

Q. How is that possible?

A. AT&T along with Sprint, other major phone companies provide the
backbone that connects all ISP's and phone networks wordwide.
By plugging into this network it is the equilvant of the NSA
wiretapping virtually ALL traffic going through the connected
networks. Since other smaller ISP's and phone companies peer
with AT&T by plugging in at a major switching center the NSA
has access to everybody's activity and may spy on your email,
phone conversations other electronic communications.

Q. What is the government trying to do?

A. They are desperate to keep this illegal activity secret.
Accordingly, they are right now attemping to block the EFF/AT&T
law suit from going forward claiming military and state secrets
privilages. The Justice Department is ILLEGALLY attempting to
dismiss this case

http://www.eff.org/news/archives/2006_04.php

http://www.eff.org/legal/cases/att/USA_statement_of_interest.pdf

Q. Why is Bush lying is ass off about the extent of the NSA spying?

A. Good question. Why indeed. Because what he authorized is illegal,
immoral, violates the forth Admendment of the Constitution and
places himself and other high official at risk of impeachment. What
Bush has so far admitted to as far as the NSA spying is only the
tip of the iceberg. If this law suit goes forward the full extent
of Bush's illegal NSA spying will become public knowledge.

Q. Under what basis would the government claim military and state
secrets privilages?

A. It is a smoke screen to hide their illegal activity. Ask yourself
a simple question. Why would the government try to squash a civil
suit unless what is clamed, illegal spying, is in fact happening?

Q. What can I do about it?

A. Write your Congressman to first make sure they are aware of this
case. Then demand this be looked into in public Senate and House
hearings.

Q. What happens of the government is successful in blocking this
law suit and keeping their illegal activities secret?

A. The beginning of a police state where the government can piss
on any law they want, spy on any citizen, throw anybody in jail
without cause or due process. Some of which they are already doing
under the Patroit Act.
Not PC
2006-06-10 18:09:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Albright
Q. Why is Bush lying is ass off about the extent of the NSA spying?
A. Good question. Why indeed. Because what he authorized is illegal,
immoral, violates the forth Admendment of the Constitution and
places himself and other high official at risk of impeachment.
WOW! You'd cum in your pants if that happened wouldn't you? Shame
you don't have any PROOF! But then again, with your "we hate BUSH"
agenda working so "well", you don't want any proof do you?
BogusID
2006-06-11 20:30:18 UTC
Permalink
So the issue is a matter of scope?

Canton gets on the impeachment track for putting his hand up a consenting
adult lobbyist's skirt, but Bush has nothing to worry about for f***ing us
all?

Yup Clinton lied about his affair, but then isn't Bush also lying to cover
his butt?

The morality is the same, its the scope and loss of life that vary.


Adam makes a valid point, and your jerky reaction was defensively without
relevant fact, a personal stab at best.
Post by Not PC
Post by Adam Albright
Q. Why is Bush lying is ass off about the extent of the NSA spying?
A. Good question. Why indeed. Because what he authorized is illegal,
immoral, violates the forth Admendment of the Constitution and
places himself and other high official at risk of impeachment.
WOW! You'd cum in your pants if that happened wouldn't you? Shame
you don't have any PROOF! But then again, with your "we hate BUSH"
agenda working so "well", you don't want any proof do you?
Leythos
2006-06-11 22:57:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by BogusID
but then isn't Bush also lying to cover
his butt?
He doesn't have anything to cover - everything they are doing and have
done IS LEGAL under the current laws.
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Jeff
2006-06-11 22:52:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Albright
Q. Why is Bush lying is ass off about the extent of the NSA spying?
A. Good question. Why indeed. Because what he authorized is illegal,
immoral, violates the forth Admendment of the Constitution and
places himself and other high official at risk of impeachment.
working so "well", you don't want any proof do you?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here "is" the 4th or Fourth amendment. The key word here is
"unreasonable" Now tell us how Bush has abused the 4th
amendment. And also please quote me the Article, section
or Amendment in the constitution where it says that everyone
has an absolute right to privacy,, it doesnt exist.



The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against
unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon
probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be
searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
steve
2006-06-13 00:30:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Not PC
Post by Adam Albright
A. Good question. Why indeed. Because what he authorized is illegal,
immoral, violates the forth Admendment of the Constitution and
places himself and other high official at risk of impeachment.
working so "well", you don't want any proof do you?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here "is" the 4th or Fourth amendment. The key word here is
"unreasonable" Now tell us how Bush has abused the 4th
amendment. And also please quote me the Article, section
or Amendment in the constitution where it says that everyone
has an absolute right to privacy,, it doesnt exist.
Bush has been upheld by the courts stating he has the right to do what
he has done. here is what the court said


The three judges made up what is known as the FISA Court of Review. It
was created in 1978 by the now-famous Foreign Intelligence Surveillance
Act. The act required that the president go to the so-called FISA Court
to seek a warrant for surveillance in top-secret foreign-intelligence
cases. For any disputed decisions that might arise, Congress also
created the Court of Review, a sort of super-secret appeals court.

But in all the years between 1978 and 2002, there had never been
occasion for the Court of Review to actually meet. Not until Sealed
Case, and the three-way collision between the executive, legislative,
and judicial branches that it involved. Today, a look at the
circumstances of the case provides not only an insight into the
administration's rationale for the secret, warrantless surveillance
program but also important clues to the mystery of how the whole thing
got started in the first place.

The conflict began with the passage of the Patriot Act in October 2001.
The act tore down the "wall" that had arisen in the Justice Department
that blocked intelligence officials and criminal investigators from
working together and sharing information. That wall had been cemented by
a set of internal department guidelines written in 1995, in which
then–attorney general Janet Reno outlined the department's constricted
surveillance procedures.

The Patriot Act was designed to fix that problem. But a month after the
act was passed, when the Justice Department submitted surveillance
requests to the FISA Court under the new, looser standards passed by
Congress, the FISA Court in effect rejected the Patriot Act, and instead
reaffirmed the old 1995 Clinton-era standard.

A standoff ensued. In early 2002, the Justice Department adopted new
surveillance procedures based on the Patriot Act. In March 2002, the
department informed the FISA Court that it would use those new standards
in surveillance applications. In May, the FISA Court said, in effect,
not so fast, and ordered modifications in the procedures. Among other
things, the FISA Court ordered that "law enforcement officials shall not
make recommendations to intelligence officials concerning the
initiation, operation, continuation or expansion of FISA searches or
surveillances" — a reasonable facsimile of the old wall. The FISA Court
also ordered that the Justice Department include certain staffers in all
surveillance debates, an order that quickly became known in the Justice
Department as the "chaperone requirement."

The Justice Department resisted, and in July 2002 filed a surveillance
application — the details are still a secret — using its new procedures,
without the FISA Court's mandated changes. The Court approved the
application but insisted that the modifications be made according to the
court's dictates. And then, in August, the FISA Court took the
extraordinary step of making its decision public, accusing the Justice
Department of habitually misrepresenting evidence and misleading the
court. That's when the department decided to take the matter to the
Court of Review, leading to the September 2002 session in that secure
room in department headquarters.

"We're here today," Theodore Olson said as the secret In re: Sealed Case
court argument began, "because the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance
Court's May 17th order . . . has perpetuated a serious and increasingly
destructive barrier which has hamstrung the president and his
subordinates" in their work to protect "the United States and its
citizens from attack and from international terrorism." The FISA Court's
ruling, Olson continued, was "inexplicable."

Olson and the judges went back and forth over the history of the wall.
Nobody really knew how it first came into being; the judges later said
its origin was "shrouded in historical mist." They went over what
Congress intended when it passed the Patriot Act. And they went over the
question of whether the FISA Court had the power to tell the president
how to conduct investigations.

The answer was no, Olson said. "To the extent that the FISA Court is
purporting to reorganize the executive branch, the so-called chaperone
function, I don't think Congress could constitutionally tell the
executive or the attorney general that he could not talk to this
subordinate without involving that subordinate," Olson told the judges,
"and I certainly don't think the court can do so."

The entire session lasted just a few hours, and the Justice Department
waited for the Court of Review's ruling. When it came, in November 2002,
it was a slam-dunk win for the government.

In its opinion, the Court of Review said the FISA Court had, in effect,
attempted to unilaterally impose the old 1995 rules. "In doing so, the
FISA Court erred," the ruling read. "It did not provide any
constitutional basis for its action — we think there is none — and
misconstrued the main statutory provision on which it relied." The FISA
Court, according to the ruling, "refus[ed] to consider the legal
significance of the Patriot Act's crucial amendments" and "may well have
exceeded the constitutional bounds" governing the courts by asserting
"authority to govern the internal organization and investigative
procedures of the Department of Justice."

And then the Court of Review did one more thing, something that has
repercussions in today's surveillance controversy. Not only could the
FISA Court not tell the president how do to his work, the Court of
Review said, but the president also had the "inherent authority" under
the Constitution to conduct needed surveillance without obtaining any
warrant — from the FISA Court or anyone else. Referring to an earlier
case, known as Truong, which dealt with surveillance before FISA was
passed, the Court of Review wrote: "The Truong court, as did all the
other courts to have decided the issue, held that the President did have
inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign
intelligence information. . . . We take for granted that the President
does have that authority and, assuming that is so, FISA could not
encroach on the President's constitutional power."

It was a clear and sweeping statement of executive authority. And what
was most likely not known to the Court of Review at the time was that
the administration had, in 2002, started a program in which it did
exactly what the Court of Review said it had the power to do: order the
surveillance of some international communications without a warrant.

Read today, In re: Sealed Case does more than simply outline the
president's authority. It also puts the administration's
warrantless-surveillance decision in some context. What was going on at
the time the president made the decision to go ahead with the
surveillance? Well, first Congress passed the Patriot Act, giving the
administration new powers. Then the FISA Court refused to recognize
those powers and attempted to impose outdated restrictions on the
administration. Then the White House, faced with the FISA Court's
opposition — and with what administration officials believed were some
inherent weaknesses in the FISA law — began to bypass the FISA Court in
some cases. And then, in In re: Sealed Case, the administration received
irrefutable legal support for its actions.

After the decision was handed down, the American Civil Liberties Union,
which had submitted a brief in support of the FISA Court's actions
restricting the administration, asked the Supreme Court to review In re:
Sealed Case. The justices declined to take any action. That is not the
same as the Court's upholding the ruling, but it does mean that the
justices looked at the decision and chose not to intervene.

Today, the opinion stands as a bedrock statement of presidential power.
And ironically, it came from a case that was not about whether the
president had overstepped his bounds, but about whether the courts had
overstepped their bounds. The Court of Review ruled strongly in favor of
the president, and the Supreme Court declined to reconsider that
decision. Reading the opinion, it's no wonder that George W. Bush has so
strongly defended the surveillance program. If the FISA Court of Review
is right, he has the Constitution on his side.



steve
Leythos
2006-06-13 00:42:02 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@sbcglobal.net>, ***@sbcglobal.net
says...
Post by steve
Today, the opinion stands as a bedrock statement of presidential power.
And ironically, it came from a case that was not about whether the
president had overstepped his bounds, but about whether the courts had
overstepped their bounds. The Court of Review ruled strongly in favor of
the president, and the Supreme Court declined to reconsider that
decision. Reading the opinion, it's no wonder that George W. Bush has so
strongly defended the surveillance program. If the FISA Court of Review
is right, he has the Constitution on his side.
Exactly and what people fail to understand. To bad people suffer from
media spouting FUD.
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Bush <hearts> Bin Laden
2006-06-11 04:30:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Not PC
OH MY GAWD!!! You mean the mean, nasty GOVERNMENT has HACKED into
Myspace.com? Er, no, they are just MONITORING the site. A PUBLIC
site. Where PEOPLE post shit about themselves.
Duh.
So, I guess if you want to keep your anonimity, DON'T POST IT ON A
WEBSITE!
Ummm, genius, Usenet is a social network, available on the
internet...in many forms.
SgtSilicon
2006-06-10 14:48:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Trace
Blind Americans who agree with the above tactics believe that
government is loving, kind, and wonderful, and that it never seeks to
do harm, nor do those who come and go with each administration. All
can be fully trusted with our personal data and our entire lives on
their hard drives and optical storage systems.
Correct. The mistake that supporters of this kind of government
snooping make, is that the government can be trusted with this kind of
power. As stated by one poster, he doesn't care so long as the
government "stays out of his way". What he truly doesn't understand,
is that the only real way of ensuring that is to not let them have
this kind of power in the 1st place. If allowed to go on, it WILL
eventually be used to "get in the way" of people it shouldn't. Trying
to find terrorists this way who know or would suspect that things are
watched is of limited value for the stated intentions. It does
however pose grave risk to future liberty for citizens.
Leythos
2006-06-10 15:00:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by SgtSilicon
Post by Trace
Blind Americans who agree with the above tactics believe that
government is loving, kind, and wonderful, and that it never seeks to
do harm, nor do those who come and go with each administration. All
can be fully trusted with our personal data and our entire lives on
their hard drives and optical storage systems.
Correct. The mistake that supporters of this kind of government
snooping make, is that the government can be trusted with this kind of
power. As stated by one poster, he doesn't care so long as the
government "stays out of his way". What he truly doesn't understand,
is that the only real way of ensuring that is to not let them have
this kind of power in the 1st place. If allowed to go on, it WILL
eventually be used to "get in the way" of people it shouldn't. Trying
to find terrorists this way who know or would suspect that things are
watched is of limited value for the stated intentions. It does
however pose grave risk to future liberty for citizens.
Your misconception is that you think something has changed, nothing has
changed, this was always happening - you just were unaware of it before
the agenda driven media was able to present it.
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Leythos
2006-06-10 14:58:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Trace
You missed the entire point of this conversation. If you are honest
with yourself, you know that we are moving away from liberty in this
great country of ours. We are allowing fear to justify the reduction
in liberty, and the advancement of intrusive government.
Amazingly, a number of Americans are willing to trade liberty for
security which as you know, in the end, they will have neither.
No, I quite clearly understand the point that Some People live under the
delusion that they were not being watched, ever, and that the security
groups were not monitoring for bad things. If you've got a realistic
view, the only thing that has change in the last 50 years is that the
media now has a vested interest in reporting what is happening instead
of just the news. The 'intrusions' on our privacy is not new, it's been
going on for a LONG time and it is a proven means to protect this
country - and it works.

The real threat to your privacy is the Media.
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SgtSilicon
2006-06-11 04:38:27 UTC
Permalink
Don't you just love how the apologizers for this illegal activity on
one hand say the accusations are wrong, there is no proof, and it's
all because Bush is hated. Then on the other hand, another apologist
claims not only is it going on, but has been for a long time. You
have to love that camps consistency of truth, NOT.
Post by Leythos
Post by Trace
You missed the entire point of this conversation. If you are honest
with yourself, you know that we are moving away from liberty in this
great country of ours. We are allowing fear to justify the reduction
in liberty, and the advancement of intrusive government.
Amazingly, a number of Americans are willing to trade liberty for
security which as you know, in the end, they will have neither.
No, I quite clearly understand the point that Some People live under the
delusion that they were not being watched, ever, and that the security
groups were not monitoring for bad things. If you've got a realistic
view, the only thing that has change in the last 50 years is that the
media now has a vested interest in reporting what is happening instead
of just the news. The 'intrusions' on our privacy is not new, it's been
going on for a LONG time and it is a proven means to protect this
country - and it works.
The real threat to your privacy is the Media.
Trace
2006-06-11 05:17:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by SgtSilicon
Don't you just love how the apologizers for this illegal activity on
one hand say the accusations are wrong, there is no proof, and it's
all because Bush is hated. Then on the other hand, another apologist
claims not only is it going on, but has been for a long time. You
have to love that camps consistency of truth, NOT.
Before 9/11, many internet users were made aware of the presence of the
NSA's
Echelon project that daily scoups up billions of emails, phone calls,
etc.

Lots of net users decided to send out emails by the thousands that
contained key words the NSA was looking for. It was all done as a way
of saying "leave us alone".

Since 9/11, the public has again learned of the NSA's abilities and
they often don't like the fact the feds are spying on them.

Many of our elected officials are saying the NSA does not spy on
Americans, but from all that I've read over the years this has been in
the news, that is purely a crock of crap.
Post by SgtSilicon
From what I've found, all phone, internet, and other forms of
electronic communication are totally monitored by the NSA in the USA
and outside of it.

Super computers break codes, understand foreign languages, and can
track individual voice patterns of those who are of some interest to
the government.

Your information is stored the moment you say something that the NSA is
listening for.
A human will later listen to your call, or it will be stored for future
reference.

Now, the above article that I posted points out that the NSA is
compiling databases on Americans and the NSA is roaming around in
Myspace type groups looking for personal data that they can store on
Americans.

So in light of this article, anyone who thinks the Feds are telling the
truth about the NSA and American's not being part of their interest has
to be living in denial. We are very much a part of what the NSA is
monitoring.

The big question is this: Why won't GW Bush stop telling us the NSA
does not listen in on our phones etc? Just say the truth and stop
telling us lies
Leythos
2006-06-11 11:11:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Trace
Now, the above article that I posted points out that the NSA is
compiling databases on Americans and the NSA is roaming around in
Myspace type groups looking for personal data that they can store on
Americans.
It's all about fishing for the targets - Americans, at least the non-
terror supporting ones, are not the targets.

Do you support Terrorism? Is that why you are so paraniod?
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Scout
2006-06-11 12:37:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Leythos
Post by Trace
Now, the above article that I posted points out that the NSA is
compiling databases on Americans and the NSA is roaming around in
Myspace type groups looking for personal data that they can store on
Americans.
It's all about fishing for the targets - Americans, at least the non-
terror supporting ones, are not the targets.
Irrelevent. It's the fact that they are fishing at all.
Post by Leythos
Do you support Terrorism? Is that why you are so paraniod?
Because I have a certain right to privacy that shouldn't be violated just
because someone decides to go fishing. If they wish to put foreign nationals
utter complete observation that's fine as they are our guest here and
anything we extend them is a courtesy not a requirement. I could even
accept, for certain things, checking interactions and communications between
foreign nationals and US citizens for reasonable suspicions. However for
interactions between and among American citizens, I draw the line. Probable
cause as established by a sworn affidavit in from of a judge establishing
the legal justification to spy on them.

You may see this as supporting terrorism, but that's your problem. If we are
going to rip away our rights and protections on the alter of finding
terrorists, then they have already won. Because we have been come like them.
Willing to sacrifice anyone and everyone to get what we want.
Trace
2006-06-11 12:57:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scout
Post by Leythos
Post by Trace
Now, the above article that I posted points out that the NSA is
compiling databases on Americans and the NSA is roaming around in
Myspace type groups looking for personal data that they can store on
Americans.
It's all about fishing for the targets - Americans, at least the non-
terror supporting ones, are not the targets.
Irrelevent. It's the fact that they are fishing at all.
Post by Leythos
Do you support Terrorism? Is that why you are so paraniod?
Because I have a certain right to privacy that shouldn't be violated just
because someone decides to go fishing. If they wish to put foreign nationals
utter complete observation that's fine as they are our guest here and
anything we extend them is a courtesy not a requirement. I could even
accept, for certain things, checking interactions and communications between
foreign nationals and US citizens for reasonable suspicions. However for
interactions between and among American citizens, I draw the line. Probable
cause as established by a sworn affidavit in from of a judge establishing
the legal justification to spy on them.
You may see this as supporting terrorism, but that's your problem. If we are
going to rip away our rights and protections on the alter of finding
terrorists, then they have already won. Because we have been come like them.
Willing to sacrifice anyone and everyone to get what we want.
Outstanding point!
Leythos
2006-06-11 22:53:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scout
You may see this as supporting terrorism, but that's your problem. If we are
going to rip away our rights and protections on the alter of finding
terrorists, then they have already won. Because we have been come like them.
Willing to sacrifice anyone and everyone to get what we want.
I've been around the world, served in the military for years, had
friends die in front of me, protected this country as best I could while
serving, and don't wear that foil-hat you seem to have on.

You are lost and delusional if you think your rights are being violated
- the simple fact is that the personal identification part of the info
is not used unless you present a signature of a threat. Much like
surfing the web, they only know your IP, unless you start doing things
that are illegal.

Oh, and you didn't really think you had any privacy before 9/11 did you?
You're just kidding if you actually think you did.

Sure, I would like my privacy increased, but I don't consider then
monitoring the Internet, Call logs, etc... any invasion - as the ISP
already monitors our actions, the telco already monitors our calls,
people listen to Cell calls and wireless phones, your health and credit
information is sold a hundred times a day, and on it goes....

Face it, the only time you will have real privacy is when you are 6 feet
under, anything else you thing is privacy is just an illusion.
--
***@rrohio.com
remove 999 in order to email me
Scout
2006-06-11 23:02:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Leythos
Post by Scout
You may see this as supporting terrorism, but that's your problem. If we are
going to rip away our rights and protections on the alter of finding
terrorists, then they have already won. Because we have been come like them.
Willing to sacrifice anyone and everyone to get what we want.
I've been around the world, served in the military for years, had
friends die in front of me, protected this country as best I could while
serving, and don't wear that foil-hat you seem to have on.
Well I have done the same, and I served and fought and watched them die to
establish, protect and nirture the freedoms and liberties we hold so dear.
So I see NO reason to simply give them up as a matter of expediance because
someone things it might help make us safer. I think Benjamin Franklin said
it best when he said, "They who would give up an essential liberty for
temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security"
Post by Leythos
You are lost and delusional if you think your rights are being violated
- the simple fact is that the personal identification part of the info
is not used unless you present a signature of a threat.
Whether I'm a threat or not does NOT alter the fact that private information
on me IS collected, cross correlated with my activities and my
communications monitored. You say this doesn't matter as long as I'm not a
theat. I say it does even if I'm not a threat, and expecially if I'm not a
threat. For if I'm not a threat and they have absolutely no cause to believe
otherwise then the collection of this data can ONLY be seen as a violation
of my privacy as a free citizen.
Post by Leythos
Much like
surfing the web, they only know your IP, unless you start doing things
that are illegal.
Yep, but they track what I do even if I do nothing illegal. However, that's
not enough, they get 3rd parties to contribute data of my legal activites.
Post by Leythos
Oh, and you didn't really think you had any privacy before 9/11 did you?
You're just kidding if you actually think you did.
Nope, it was a problem then and it is a problem now. What I can't understand
is your acceptance if the unwarranted collection of personal data has been
going on for a longer period of time. I wasn't aware that rights violations
came with an expiration date and that after that point they suddenly become
legitimate government activities.
Post by Leythos
Sure, I would like my privacy increased, but I don't consider then
monitoring the Internet, Call logs, etc... any invasion - as the ISP
already monitors our actions, the telco already monitors our calls,
people listen to Cell calls and wireless phones, your health and credit
information is sold a hundred times a day, and on it goes....
I see, so because others do so makes it right for them to do so?

I would have thought your mother would have explained that this is a false
position and just because the other boys are doing something wrong doesn't
make it right for you to do the same.
Post by Leythos
Face it, the only time you will have real privacy is when you are 6 feet
under, anything else you thing is privacy is just an illusion.
Perhaps, but that doesn't mean I'm going to hold my tongue when such
violations occur. You may like living in a society of secret police but I
don't.
Leythos
2006-06-11 23:16:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scout
Whether I'm a threat or not does NOT alter the fact that private information
on me IS collected, cross correlated with my activities and my
communications monitored. You say this doesn't matter as long as I'm not a
theat. I say it does even if I'm not a threat, and expecially if I'm not a
threat. For if I'm not a threat and they have absolutely no cause to believe
otherwise then the collection of this data can ONLY be seen as a violation
of my privacy as a free citizen.
What you seem to be missing, again, is they are not tracking YOU
personally, they are tracking DATA, and they are not connecting it to
YOU unless you fit the threat profile.

They are using the information to develop methods to track, and they are
not connecting it to a PERSON until that person is a threat.
--
***@rrohio.com
remove 999 in order to email me
Scout
2006-06-12 00:55:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Leythos
Post by Scout
Whether I'm a threat or not does NOT alter the fact that private information
on me IS collected, cross correlated with my activities and my
communications monitored. You say this doesn't matter as long as I'm not a
theat. I say it does even if I'm not a threat, and expecially if I'm not a
threat. For if I'm not a threat and they have absolutely no cause to believe
otherwise then the collection of this data can ONLY be seen as a violation
of my privacy as a free citizen.
What you seem to be missing, again, is they are not tracking YOU
personally, they are tracking DATA, and they are not connecting it to
YOU unless you fit the threat profile.
They are tracking MY data, they have MY data, what they chose to do with MY
data isn't the issue. The issue is that they have MY data. Hello? Is this
sinking in?

The issue isn't whether they are specifically tracking me. The issue is that
whether they intend to do so specifically or not they ARE doing so. MY data
is part of it all and they can show NO justification to collect MY data.
Post by Leythos
They are using the information to develop methods to track, and they are
not connecting it to a PERSON until that person is a threat.
Nice assertion, but the fact remains they DO have MY data because they did
collect MY data, and MY data may be misused. They may be perfect saints but
that doesn't mean that someone else that has access to MY data is. After
all, I'm already getting letters telling me how my PERSONAL AND CONFIDENTIAL
data has been leaked due to their piss poor security. So why would I want
them to collect MORE data and potentially leak that data as well?


They are fishing. Plain and simple.
dbltap
2006-06-12 02:59:39 UTC
Permalink
Bottom line:
Accept the fact that you no longer have any privacy.
Be it the government with the technological resources or anyone with enough
money, everything about you is for sale and available.
The genie is out of the bottle and can not be put back in.
It is imposable to go off the grid, so just grin and accept it.
Post by Scout
Post by Leythos
Post by Scout
Whether I'm a threat or not does NOT alter the fact that private information
on me IS collected, cross correlated with my activities and my
communications monitored. You say this doesn't matter as long as I'm not a
theat. I say it does even if I'm not a threat, and expecially if I'm not a
threat. For if I'm not a threat and they have absolutely no cause to believe
otherwise then the collection of this data can ONLY be seen as a violation
of my privacy as a free citizen.
What you seem to be missing, again, is they are not tracking YOU
personally, they are tracking DATA, and they are not connecting it to
YOU unless you fit the threat profile.
They are tracking MY data, they have MY data, what they chose to do with
MY data isn't the issue. The issue is that they have MY data. Hello? Is
this sinking in?
The issue isn't whether they are specifically tracking me. The issue is
that whether they intend to do so specifically or not they ARE doing so.
MY data is part of it all and they can show NO justification to collect MY
data.
Post by Leythos
They are using the information to develop methods to track, and they are
not connecting it to a PERSON until that person is a threat.
Nice assertion, but the fact remains they DO have MY data because they did
collect MY data, and MY data may be misused. They may be perfect saints
but that doesn't mean that someone else that has access to MY data is.
After all, I'm already getting letters telling me how my PERSONAL AND
CONFIDENTIAL data has been leaked due to their piss poor security. So why
would I want them to collect MORE data and potentially leak that data as
well?
They are fishing. Plain and simple.
Scout
2006-06-12 09:15:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by dbltap
Accept the fact that you no longer have any privacy.
You can accept it. Me, I will continue to protest.
Post by dbltap
Be it the government with the technological resources or anyone with
enough money, everything about you is for sale and available.
The genie is out of the bottle and can not be put back in.
It is imposable to go off the grid, so just grin and accept it.
So I should just accept this?

Should i also accept any other violations of my rights by anyone with the
money and resources to violate them?

All those in favor of unwarranted spying by the goverment raise your hoof
and say "Baaaa".
Post by dbltap
Post by Scout
Post by Leythos
Post by Scout
Whether I'm a threat or not does NOT alter the fact that private information
on me IS collected, cross correlated with my activities and my
communications monitored. You say this doesn't matter as long as I'm not a
theat. I say it does even if I'm not a threat, and expecially if I'm not a
threat. For if I'm not a threat and they have absolutely no cause to believe
otherwise then the collection of this data can ONLY be seen as a violation
of my privacy as a free citizen.
What you seem to be missing, again, is they are not tracking YOU
personally, they are tracking DATA, and they are not connecting it to
YOU unless you fit the threat profile.
They are tracking MY data, they have MY data, what they chose to do with
MY data isn't the issue. The issue is that they have MY data. Hello? Is
this sinking in?
The issue isn't whether they are specifically tracking me. The issue is
that whether they intend to do so specifically or not they ARE doing so.
MY data is part of it all and they can show NO justification to collect
MY data.
Post by Leythos
They are using the information to develop methods to track, and they are
not connecting it to a PERSON until that person is a threat.
Nice assertion, but the fact remains they DO have MY data because they
did collect MY data, and MY data may be misused. They may be perfect
saints but that doesn't mean that someone else that has access to MY data
is. After all, I'm already getting letters telling me how my PERSONAL AND
CONFIDENTIAL data has been leaked due to their piss poor security. So why
would I want them to collect MORE data and potentially leak that data as
well?
They are fishing. Plain and simple.
steve
2006-06-13 00:22:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scout
Because I have a certain right to privacy that shouldn't be violated just
because someone decides to go fishing. If they wish to put foreign nationals
utter complete observation that's fine as they are our guest here and
anything we extend them is a courtesy not a requirement. I could even
accept, for certain things, checking interactions and communications between
foreign nationals and US citizens for reasonable suspicions. However for
interactions between and among American citizens, I draw the line. Probable
cause as established by a sworn affidavit in from of a judge establishing
the legal justification to spy on them.
Actually you have no right to privacy. That right was granted to you
from a liberal court. There is nowhere in the constitution that grants
you the right of privacy. Just the same as there is no right to an
abortion in the constitution. I want the courts to adhere to the
constitution not create laws cause they can.


steve
Scout
2006-06-13 00:44:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by steve
Post by Scout
Because I have a certain right to privacy that shouldn't be violated just
because someone decides to go fishing. If they wish to put foreign
nationals utter complete observation that's fine as they are our guest
here and anything we extend them is a courtesy not a requirement. I could
even accept, for certain things, checking interactions and communications
between foreign nationals and US citizens for reasonable suspicions.
However for interactions between and among American citizens, I draw the
line. Probable cause as established by a sworn affidavit in from of a
judge establishing the legal justification to spy on them.
Actually you have no right to privacy.
5th and 10th Amendments.
Post by steve
That right was granted to you from a liberal court.
No, that is a right I have. That's why a search warrant is necessary.
Post by steve
There is nowhere in the constitution that grants you the right of privacy.
Free Hint. The Constitution does not grant our rights, nor do our rights
depend only any statement in the Constitution for their existance. The
Constitution tells the federal (and via the 14th the state and local )
government what they can NOT do. I do have a right to privacy and the 5th
exists to protect that privacy be requiring a search warrant prior to
violating it.
Post by steve
Just the same as there is no right to an abortion in the constitution.
See above about rights and the Constitution.
Post by steve
I want the courts to adhere to the constitution not create laws cause they
can.
Agreed. Which means that the federal government has NO power and NO
authority other than those limited, specific and enumerated powers as set
forth in the Constitution. I see NO authority to compile databases covering
the personal data of US citizens, what they do, who they see, what they say,
who the communicate with, what they search for or any of the other things
being set into this database. I don't see any such authority granted, and
the Constitution in the 9th Amendment specifically spells out that without
any such specific enumeration of power the federal government has NO such
authority or power.

Now, you were saying something about adhereing to the Constitution?
Post by steve
steve
Not PC
2006-06-13 02:14:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by steve
Actually you have no right to privacy. That right was granted to you
from a liberal court. There is nowhere in the constitution that grants
you the right of privacy. Just the same as there is no right to an
abortion in the constitution. I want the courts to adhere to the
constitution not create laws cause they can.
Ah stevie, so the ONLY RIGHTS we have are the ones GRANTED by the
Constitution? So you have no RIGHT not to be searched when in a CAR
because there were no CARS when the Constituion was written, right?
And you got no RIGHT to keep the feds from listening to your telephone
because there were no TELEPHONES when the Constitution was written,
right?

How many other RIGHTS DON'T YOU HAVE?

Try reading the ninth and ten amendments to the Constitution sometime.

IDIOT.
steve
2006-06-14 01:46:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Not PC
Ah stevie, so the ONLY RIGHTS we have are the ones GRANTED by the
Constitution? So you have no RIGHT not to be searched when in a CAR
because there were no CARS when the Constituion was written, right?
And you got no RIGHT to keep the feds from listening to your telephone
because there were no TELEPHONES when the Constitution was written,
right?
How many other RIGHTS DON'T YOU HAVE?
Try reading the ninth and ten amendments to the Constitution sometime.
IDIOT.
Listen your rights are granted already about searches. Cars and new
stuff has nothing to do with it.... period. the feds are not listening
in on your telephone a computer is. The courts have already deamed this
as perfectly legal ie not wiretapping...... don't read into it more or
less then it says.... dude. pretty weak analogy.



steve
Not PC
2006-06-14 03:19:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by steve
Post by Not PC
Ah stevie, so the ONLY RIGHTS we have are the ones GRANTED by the
Constitution? So you have no RIGHT not to be searched when in a CAR
because there were no CARS when the Constituion was written, right?
And you got no RIGHT to keep the feds from listening to your telephone
because there were no TELEPHONES when the Constitution was written,
right?
How many other RIGHTS DON'T YOU HAVE?
Try reading the ninth and ten amendments to the Constitution sometime.
IDIOT.
Listen your rights are granted already about searches. Cars and new
stuff has nothing to do with it.... period. the feds are not listening
in on your telephone a computer is. The courts have already deamed this
as perfectly legal ie not wiretapping...... don't read into it more or
less then it says.... dude. pretty weak analogy.
Uh, dumbass, that was my POINT. The Constitution doesn't GRANT
ANYTHING. It GUARANTEES rights. And the ninth amendment "The
enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be
construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." says
that the RIGHTS in the "bill of rights" are NOT THE ONLY RIGHTS THERE
ARE!

So some IDIOT says "there is no right to privacy". GUESS WHAT! There
IS A RIGHT TO PRIVACY!
steve
2006-06-14 17:35:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Not PC
Post by steve
Listen your rights are granted already about searches. Cars and new
stuff has nothing to do with it.... period. the feds are not listening
in on your telephone a computer is. The courts have already deamed this
as perfectly legal ie not wiretapping...... don't read into it more or
less then it says.... dude. pretty weak analogy.
Uh, dumbass, that was my POINT. The Constitution doesn't GRANT
ANYTHING. It GUARANTEES rights. And the ninth amendment "The
enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be
construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." says
that the RIGHTS in the "bill of rights" are NOT THE ONLY RIGHTS THERE
ARE!
So some IDIOT says "there is no right to privacy". GUESS WHAT! There
IS A RIGHT TO PRIVACY!
First off don't be calling me a dumbass you FUCKING ASSHOLE!

All I said was the courts already have stated that there are limits to
your right of privacy and that the courts have already upheld the Govt
on what is and what is not wiretapping. Data mining is not illegal
period, and was upheld by the high court. This is not my opinion but the
courts. As I said don't read into it more or less than what it says.I am
not giving you my opinion just the Supreme courts view. You have the
right to free speech also, but that is not absolute either is it.

Every word I stated in my statement is true and factual. No summation on
my part. All was upheld by the courts. Your is just opinion

So knock off the name calling and such. Keep it civil


Steve
Not PC
2006-06-14 17:50:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by steve
Post by Not PC
Post by steve
Listen your rights are granted already about searches. Cars and new
stuff has nothing to do with it.... period. the feds are not listening
in on your telephone a computer is. The courts have already deamed this
as perfectly legal ie not wiretapping...... don't read into it more or
less then it says.... dude. pretty weak analogy.
Uh, dumbass, that was my POINT. The Constitution doesn't GRANT
ANYTHING. It GUARANTEES rights. And the ninth amendment "The
enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be
construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." says
that the RIGHTS in the "bill of rights" are NOT THE ONLY RIGHTS THERE
ARE!
So some IDIOT says "there is no right to privacy". GUESS WHAT! There
IS A RIGHT TO PRIVACY!
First off don't be calling me a dumbass you FUCKING ASSHOLE!
EAT SHIT FUCKHEAD
Post by steve
All I said was the courts already have stated that there are limits to
your right of privacy and that the courts have already upheld the Govt
on what is and what is not wiretapping.
No. You said rights were GRANTED, dumbass. The Constitutiondoesn't
GRANT anything, dumbass, it guarantees a limit on government. See the
difference, DUMBASS?
Scout
2006-06-14 20:48:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by steve
Post by Not PC
Listen your rights are granted already about searches. Cars and new stuff
has nothing to do with it.... period. the feds are not listening in on
your telephone a computer is. The courts have already deamed this as
perfectly legal ie not wiretapping...... don't read into it more or less
then it says.... dude. pretty weak analogy.
Uh, dumbass, that was my POINT. The Constitution doesn't GRANT
ANYTHING. It GUARANTEES rights. And the ninth amendment "The
enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be
construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." says
that the RIGHTS in the "bill of rights" are NOT THE ONLY RIGHTS THERE
ARE!
So some IDIOT says "there is no right to privacy". GUESS WHAT! There
IS A RIGHT TO PRIVACY!
First off don't be calling me a dumbass you FUCKING ASSHOLE!
All I said was the courts already have stated that there are limits to
your right of privacy
Would these be the same courts that asserted that people were property and
racial discrimination was equality?
Post by steve
and that the courts have already upheld the Govt on what is and what is not
wiretapping.
IOW, the government is telling itself that it's ok to violate our rights.
ROFL.
Post by steve
Data mining is not illegal period, and was upheld by the high court.
Data mining is illegal as it is an unwarrented search.
Post by steve
This is not my opinion but the courts.
So? You think the courts are infaliable and perfect?
Post by steve
As I said don't read into it more or less than what it says.I am not
giving you my opinion just the Supreme courts view.
Well since you have nothing of your own to add, then why are you even
bothering to talk? Are you a parrot?
Scout
2006-06-14 08:55:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Not PC
Ah stevie, so the ONLY RIGHTS we have are the ones GRANTED by the
Constitution? So you have no RIGHT not to be searched when in a CAR
because there were no CARS when the Constituion was written, right?
And you got no RIGHT to keep the feds from listening to your telephone
because there were no TELEPHONES when the Constitution was written,
right?
How many other RIGHTS DON'T YOU HAVE? Try reading the ninth and ten
amendments to the Constitution sometime.
IDIOT.
Listen your rights are granted already about searches. Cars and new stuff
has nothing to do with it.... period. the feds are not listening in on
your telephone a computer is.
So? The conversation is STILL being listened too.
steve
2006-06-14 17:43:27 UTC
Permalink
No it is not. It is date mined by a super computer at the NSA, not by a
person. It is physically impossible to listen in on everyone talking on
the phone by a person.

It listens for key words and then logs it if it is of interest. If it
is of interest or is flagged then it is logged. then it is sent to an
agent that has very strict rules on what and what not he can with and
about the call. All has been upheld by the Supreme court of the land as
no invasion to your privacy or illegal search and seasure. Any phone
call going out of the country is considered up for free grabs by the
courts without an warrant from fisa courts under the rights of the
President and the security of the country.

Steve
Post by Scout
Post by Not PC
Ah stevie, so the ONLY RIGHTS we have are the ones GRANTED by the
Constitution? So you have no RIGHT not to be searched when in a CAR
because there were no CARS when the Constituion was written, right?
And you got no RIGHT to keep the feds from listening to your telephone
because there were no TELEPHONES when the Constitution was written,
right?
How many other RIGHTS DON'T YOU HAVE? Try reading the ninth and ten
amendments to the Constitution sometime.
IDIOT.
Listen your rights are granted already about searches. Cars and new stuff
has nothing to do with it.... period. the feds are not listening in on
your telephone a computer is.
So? The conversation is STILL being listened too.
Scout
2006-06-14 22:57:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by steve
No it is not. It is date mined by a super computer at the NSA, not by a
person.
So? Is an unwarranted search by a robot any different?

If I spy on you with remote cameras is that ok because I'm not looking at
you with my own eyes?

Sorry, but a search is a search whether done live and in person, or remotely
under computer direction.
Post by steve
It is physically impossible to listen in on everyone talking on the phone
by a person.
Sure it is, if you are willing to apply enough man power to a short enough
period of time.

Further while in a practical sense I agree with you, the fact remains that
ANY such conversation can be recorded and any individual conversion CAN be
listened to. As such those conversations are still being obtained. Whether
anyone gets around to listening to them isn't the issue. If I hide a webcam
in your bathroom and pipe it out to the web, does it matter whether anyone
actually watched the feed change the fact I violated your privacy?
Post by steve
It listens for key words and then logs it if it is of interest. If it is
of interest or is flagged then it is logged. then it is sent to an agent
that has very strict rules on what and what not he can with and about the
call. All has been upheld by the Supreme court of the land as no invasion
to your privacy or illegal search and seasure.
So let's see. By your own admission EVERY conversation is subject to
unwarrented search and analysis, in a fishing expidition for those of
special interest, and according to you this is ok because the courts assert
that such search is ok as long as it's, what, run by machine?

I know, let's bug everyone's house with sound and video cameras pipe that
feed into a computer and then anything that trips a search routine or is
specifically selected can be viewed, reviewed, and/or distributed at will.
After all, just because you're engaged in something legal then clearly it
wouldn't ever be of any interest to anyone particularly some person in a
position to use their power to access that information looking for dirt.

Sorry, you seem to feel just because the search is massive and handled by
machine that somehow alters the fact.

Tell me, would it make any difference is someone were listening to all of
these conversations and making a decision on whether to pass it on?

What difference does it make how the mass unwarranted search is being
conducted?
SgtSilicon
2006-06-15 01:39:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by steve
No it is not. It is date mined by a super computer at the NSA, not by a
person. It is physically impossible to listen in on everyone talking on
the phone by a person.
It listens for key words and then logs it if it is of interest. If it
is of interest or is flagged then it is logged. then it is sent to an
agent that has very strict rules on what and what not he can with and
Steve, you do not know that all VOIP coms aren't being stored for
future retrieval, or for what retention period. The only "flag" that
might need to be set is that someone has an interest in YOU and then
goes about referencing all they have on YOU (or me, or nay one of us).
So instead of the content drawing interest to the person, it can the
other way and interest in a person can lead to use of the content.
This could happen at any point in time in the future for virtually any
reason. I have already pointed out many of the possible improper
reasons in previous posts so will not bother to keep doing so.
SgtSilicon
2006-06-11 17:33:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Leythos
Post by Trace
Now, the above article that I posted points out that the NSA is
compiling databases on Americans and the NSA is roaming around in
Myspace type groups looking for personal data that they can store on
Americans.
It's all about fishing for the targets - Americans, at least the non-
terror supporting ones, are not the targets.
Do you support Terrorism? Is that why you are so paraniod?
Because that same practices can be used for purposes other than trying
to find terrorists. Given that we should learn from the past, it is
not paranoid to think that at some point it WILL be used for other
purposes. The same mouths which claim it isn't happening are the same
ones which tell us if it does happen it's only to try and catch
terrorists.
Mr. Dillon
2006-06-11 10:13:00 UTC
Permalink
"SgtSilicon" <***@ihatespam.net> wrote in message news:***@nntp.charter.net...
Don't you just love how the apologizers for this illegal activity on
one hand say the accusations are wrong, there is no proof, and it's
all because Bush is hated. Then on the other hand, another apologist
claims not only is it going on, but has been for a long time. You
have to love that camps consistency of truth, NOT.
Since when has a Liberal, or the Press, (is there a difference?) let a fact
or two get in the way of their agenda?
Liberals don't report facts. They write editorials based upon their leftist
"feelings" and facts are mere stumbling blocks to step over and ignore.
Leythos
2006-06-11 11:10:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by SgtSilicon
Don't you just love how the apologizers for this illegal activity on
one hand say the accusations are wrong, there is no proof, and it's
all because Bush is hated. Then on the other hand, another apologist
claims not only is it going on, but has been for a long time. You
have to love that camps consistency of truth, NOT.
Clinton and other presidents were already using the ability, publically,
before Bush did. Many Presidents use the same power before it was a law.
Many government agencies used that power without it being law before
Usenet was created....

It would be interesting to see where we would be today without all of it
happening. I would guess we would see many attacks on our soil without
it.
--
***@rrohio.com
remove 999 in order to email me
SgtSilicon
2006-06-11 17:37:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
Don't you just love how the apologizers for this illegal activity on
one hand say the accusations are wrong, there is no proof, and it's
all because Bush is hated. Then on the other hand, another apologist
claims not only is it going on, but has been for a long time. You
have to love that camps consistency of truth, NOT.
Clinton and other presidents were already using the ability, publically,
before Bush did. Many Presidents use the same power before it was a law.
Many government agencies used that power without it being law before
Usenet was created....
It would be interesting to see where we would be today without all of it
happening. I would guess we would see many attacks on our soil without
it.
Yes, now then please go correct those who claim that it's all a dirty
lie and accusation made by Bush bathers to try and discredit him.
Leythos
2006-06-11 22:56:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by SgtSilicon
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
Don't you just love how the apologizers for this illegal activity on
one hand say the accusations are wrong, there is no proof, and it's
all because Bush is hated. Then on the other hand, another apologist
claims not only is it going on, but has been for a long time. You
have to love that camps consistency of truth, NOT.
Clinton and other presidents were already using the ability, publically,
before Bush did. Many Presidents use the same power before it was a law.
Many government agencies used that power without it being law before
Usenet was created....
It would be interesting to see where we would be today without all of it
happening. I would guess we would see many attacks on our soil without
it.
Yes, now then please go correct those who claim that it's all a dirty
lie and accusation made by Bush bathers to try and discredit him.
Why, they already proved most of that - since it was done by Carter,
Clinton and most other presidents (and even before the media was
interested in printing it). I don't dispute that the information is
being collected, in fact, it was being collected long before the media
started in on it, long before Bush was elected (either of them).... I
just don't think most of you whiners actually understand that nothing
has changed, it's been done for a LONG TIME, and the only difference is
that you have a Anti-Bush media trying to make a stink about it. Get it
through your heads, nothing has changed, it's just more public now.
--
***@rrohio.com
remove 999 in order to email me
SgtSilicon
2006-06-12 00:05:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
Don't you just love how the apologizers for this illegal activity on
one hand say the accusations are wrong, there is no proof, and it's
all because Bush is hated. Then on the other hand, another apologist
claims not only is it going on, but has been for a long time. You
have to love that camps consistency of truth, NOT.
Clinton and other presidents were already using the ability, publically,
before Bush did. Many Presidents use the same power before it was a law.
Many government agencies used that power without it being law before
Usenet was created....
It would be interesting to see where we would be today without all of it
happening. I would guess we would see many attacks on our soil without
it.
Yes, now then please go correct those who claim that it's all a dirty
lie and accusation made by Bush bathers to try and discredit him.
Why, they already proved most of that - since it was done by Carter,
Clinton and most other presidents (and even before the media was
interested in printing it). I don't dispute that the information is
being collected, in fact, it was being collected long before the media
started in on it, long before Bush was elected (either of them).... I
just don't think most of you whiners actually understand that nothing
has changed, it's been done for a LONG TIME, and the only difference is
that you have a Anti-Bush media trying to make a stink about it. Get it
through your heads, nothing has changed, it's just more public now.
No, there are more differences. Like computerization and the capacity
to store, cross reference and retrieve information.
R Sweeney
2006-06-12 00:12:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by SgtSilicon
No, there are more differences. Like computerization and the capacity
to store, cross reference and retrieve information.
Echelon was Clinton's computerized, cross-referenced electronic spy engine.
SgtSilicon
2006-06-12 00:18:31 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 20:12:27 -0400, "R Sweeney"
Post by R Sweeney
Post by SgtSilicon
No, there are more differences. Like computerization and the capacity
to store, cross reference and retrieve information.
Echelon was Clinton's computerized, cross-referenced electronic spy engine.
Ya so? It was wrong. We are getting more of what's wrong.
R Sweeney
2006-06-12 02:57:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by SgtSilicon
On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 20:12:27 -0400, "R Sweeney"
Post by R Sweeney
Post by SgtSilicon
No, there are more differences. Like computerization and the capacity
to store, cross reference and retrieve information.
Echelon was Clinton's computerized, cross-referenced electronic spy engine.
Ya so? It was wrong. We are getting more of what's wrong.
the point is, that you were wrong... there is no difference
Leythos
2006-06-12 00:37:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by SgtSilicon
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
Don't you just love how the apologizers for this illegal activity on
one hand say the accusations are wrong, there is no proof, and it's
all because Bush is hated. Then on the other hand, another apologist
claims not only is it going on, but has been for a long time. You
have to love that camps consistency of truth, NOT.
Clinton and other presidents were already using the ability, publically,
before Bush did. Many Presidents use the same power before it was a law.
Many government agencies used that power without it being law before
Usenet was created....
It would be interesting to see where we would be today without all of it
happening. I would guess we would see many attacks on our soil without
it.
Yes, now then please go correct those who claim that it's all a dirty
lie and accusation made by Bush bathers to try and discredit him.
Why, they already proved most of that - since it was done by Carter,
Clinton and most other presidents (and even before the media was
interested in printing it). I don't dispute that the information is
being collected, in fact, it was being collected long before the media
started in on it, long before Bush was elected (either of them).... I
just don't think most of you whiners actually understand that nothing
has changed, it's been done for a LONG TIME, and the only difference is
that you have a Anti-Bush media trying to make a stink about it. Get it
through your heads, nothing has changed, it's just more public now.
No, there are more differences. Like computerization and the capacity
to store, cross reference and retrieve information.
Yep, and they still don't connect it to "You" unless their algorithms
come up with something that flags you... So that means you can call the
local KFC 1000 times a day and you've got nothing to worry about, but if
you start getting a lot of calls from overseas then you start making a
lot of LD calls when you were never making them before..... They might
want to know YOU at that time, but not before.
--
***@rrohio.com
remove 999 in order to email me
Scout
2006-06-12 00:59:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
Don't you just love how the apologizers for this illegal activity on
one hand say the accusations are wrong, there is no proof, and it's
all because Bush is hated. Then on the other hand, another apologist
claims not only is it going on, but has been for a long time. You
have to love that camps consistency of truth, NOT.
Clinton and other presidents were already using the ability, publically,
before Bush did. Many Presidents use the same power before it was a law.
Many government agencies used that power without it being law before
Usenet was created....
It would be interesting to see where we would be today without all of it
happening. I would guess we would see many attacks on our soil without
it.
Yes, now then please go correct those who claim that it's all a dirty
lie and accusation made by Bush bathers to try and discredit him.
Why, they already proved most of that - since it was done by Carter,
Clinton and most other presidents (and even before the media was
interested in printing it). I don't dispute that the information is
being collected, in fact, it was being collected long before the media
started in on it, long before Bush was elected (either of them).... I
just don't think most of you whiners actually understand that nothing
has changed, it's been done for a LONG TIME, and the only difference is
that you have a Anti-Bush media trying to make a stink about it. Get it
through your heads, nothing has changed, it's just more public now.
No, there are more differences. Like computerization and the capacity
to store, cross reference and retrieve information.
Yep, and they still don't connect it to "You" unless their algorithms
come up with something that flags you...
You keep making this assertion. So let's see your data that shows that they
do not and can not connect it to any individual unless their algorithm shows
a hit. Then indicate for me the algorithm which provides hits with 100%
accuracy and NEVER generates a false positive. Otherwise your assertions are
bullshit and hot air.

Finally, prove to me that the data collect can NEVER be misused, abused,
shared, stolen, hacked, or otherwise used for another purpose by anyone at
any time for any reason now and forever.

You can't, can you?


<So that means you can call the
Post by Leythos
local KFC 1000 times a day and you've got nothing to worry about, but if
you start getting a lot of calls from overseas then you start making a
lot of LD calls when you were never making them before..... They might
want to know YOU at that time, but not before.
So, if someone gets me as a wrong number and call back several times to get
my answering machine, suddenly I'm a suspected terrorist and all this data
which they have NO cause to collect is suddenly subject to analysis, cross
checks, etc....

And then you tell me I have no cause to be concerned?
Leythos
2006-06-12 02:05:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scout
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
Don't you just love how the apologizers for this illegal activity on
one hand say the accusations are wrong, there is no proof, and it's
all because Bush is hated. Then on the other hand, another apologist
claims not only is it going on, but has been for a long time. You
have to love that camps consistency of truth, NOT.
Clinton and other presidents were already using the ability, publically,
before Bush did. Many Presidents use the same power before it was a law.
Many government agencies used that power without it being law before
Usenet was created....
It would be interesting to see where we would be today without all of it
happening. I would guess we would see many attacks on our soil without
it.
Yes, now then please go correct those who claim that it's all a dirty
lie and accusation made by Bush bathers to try and discredit him.
Why, they already proved most of that - since it was done by Carter,
Clinton and most other presidents (and even before the media was
interested in printing it). I don't dispute that the information is
being collected, in fact, it was being collected long before the media
started in on it, long before Bush was elected (either of them).... I
just don't think most of you whiners actually understand that nothing
has changed, it's been done for a LONG TIME, and the only difference is
that you have a Anti-Bush media trying to make a stink about it. Get it
through your heads, nothing has changed, it's just more public now.
No, there are more differences. Like computerization and the capacity
to store, cross reference and retrieve information.
Yep, and they still don't connect it to "You" unless their algorithms
come up with something that flags you...
You keep making this assertion. So let's see your data that shows that they
do not and can not connect it to any individual unless their algorithm shows
a hit. Then indicate for me the algorithm which provides hits with 100%
accuracy and NEVER generates a false positive. Otherwise your assertions are
bullshit and hot air.
Finally, prove to me that the data collect can NEVER be misused, abused,
shared, stolen, hacked, or otherwise used for another purpose by anyone at
any time for any reason now and forever.
You can't, can you?
Nope, I can't - and not any more than you can prove that they are
identifying YOU personally.

Fact is, that you don't know what they are doing as you're only
following the media releases and you don't know anyone in Intel or you
would not be crying so much.
--
***@rrohio.com
remove 999 in order to email me
Scout
2006-06-12 09:13:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Leythos
Post by Scout
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
Don't you just love how the apologizers for this illegal
activity
on
one hand say the accusations are wrong, there is no proof, and it's
all because Bush is hated. Then on the other hand, another apologist
claims not only is it going on, but has been for a long time.
You
have to love that camps consistency of truth, NOT.
Clinton and other presidents were already using the ability, publically,
before Bush did. Many Presidents use the same power before it was
a
law.
Many government agencies used that power without it being law before
Usenet was created....
It would be interesting to see where we would be today without all
of
it
happening. I would guess we would see many attacks on our soil without
it.
Yes, now then please go correct those who claim that it's all a dirty
lie and accusation made by Bush bathers to try and discredit him.
Why, they already proved most of that - since it was done by Carter,
Clinton and most other presidents (and even before the media was
interested in printing it). I don't dispute that the information is
being collected, in fact, it was being collected long before the media
started in on it, long before Bush was elected (either of them).... I
just don't think most of you whiners actually understand that nothing
has changed, it's been done for a LONG TIME, and the only difference is
that you have a Anti-Bush media trying to make a stink about it. Get it
through your heads, nothing has changed, it's just more public now.
No, there are more differences. Like computerization and the capacity
to store, cross reference and retrieve information.
Yep, and they still don't connect it to "You" unless their algorithms
come up with something that flags you...
You keep making this assertion. So let's see your data that shows that they
do not and can not connect it to any individual unless their algorithm shows
a hit. Then indicate for me the algorithm which provides hits with 100%
accuracy and NEVER generates a false positive. Otherwise your assertions are
bullshit and hot air.
Finally, prove to me that the data collect can NEVER be misused, abused,
shared, stolen, hacked, or otherwise used for another purpose by anyone at
any time for any reason now and forever.
You can't, can you?
Nope, I can't - and not any more than you can prove that they are
identifying YOU personally.
Well for me to be concerned does NOT require that they, currently, be
identifying me personally just that they have the capacity to do so. A fact
you have ALREADY admitted to.

Since you can not show me that this data can not be misused then it would
seem my concerns are justified.
Post by Leythos
Fact is, that you don't know what they are doing as you're only
following the media releases and you don't know anyone in Intel or you
would not be crying so much.
Actually I know quite a few in Intel, but that doesn't mean I know what they
know since I lack the proper need to know. However, the fact remains they
are collecting this data, they can use it to identify me personally, and
there are absolutely no guarantee that this data will not be misused either
by them or by someone else.

Now tell me again why I should be happy they are collecting my personal data
for their system?
Leythos
2006-06-12 13:04:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scout
Actually I know quite a few in Intel, but that doesn't mean I know what they
know since I lack the proper need to know. However, the fact remains they
are collecting this data, they can use it to identify me personally, and
there are absolutely no guarantee that this data will not be misused either
by them or by someone else.
And you are doing nothing about the Health insurance company, the Auto
Insurance company, your Doctors office, your Credit card company, your
Phone company, etc.... They have a LOT more info on you that they
actually share with others, not to mention sending that data to
countries where the US has no laws to control access to it - Just think
about all the ignorant people that didn't know that H&R Block sends the
tax info to India to be entered into forms and then returned to the USA.

All data has the potential to be misused and the information they are
tracking has less potential for causing you problems than your Health
Insurance company data does.
Post by Scout
Now tell me again why I should be happy they are collecting my personal data
for their system?
Because it will be used to identify trends/communications that will lead
to targeting criminal actions, hopefully, before they make a large
impact on this nations people.
--
***@rrohio.com
remove 999 in order to email me
Scout
2006-06-12 23:51:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Leythos
Post by Scout
Actually I know quite a few in Intel, but that doesn't mean I know what they
know since I lack the proper need to know. However, the fact remains they
are collecting this data, they can use it to identify me personally, and
there are absolutely no guarantee that this data will not be misused either
by them or by someone else.
And you are doing nothing about the Health insurance company, the Auto
Insurance company, your Doctors office, your Credit card company, your
Phone company, etc.... They have a LOT more info on you that they
actually share with others, not to mention sending that data to
countries where the US has no laws to control access to it -
Well, I include traps in such data and if/when it appears someplace else I
can and do take legal action. Further I avoid and/or cease doing business
with anyone that transships my data out of the country. I do not give them
any more information that they are required to have. Indeed NONE of the
above have my SSN. They don't need it, can't require it, and I don't supply
it. Instead I have them issue me a control number which works just as well,
and does NOT give everyone an open inventation to engage in identity theft.

So far, I have sued and won settlements against businesses for wrongfully
supplying my data to others. If I really worked at it I could probably
never work another day in my life simply supply this data and then sue them
when they violate privacy acts.

There are only a few organizations that you are legally required to supply
your SSN to and none of those are listed above.



Just think
Post by Leythos
about all the ignorant people that didn't know that H&R Block sends the
tax info to India to be entered into forms and then returned to the USA.
All data has the potential to be misused and the information they are
tracking has less potential for causing you problems than your Health
Insurance company data does.
Post by Scout
Now tell me again why I should be happy they are collecting my personal data
for their system?
Because it will be used to identify trends/communications that will lead
to targeting criminal actions, hopefully, before they make a large
impact on this nations people.
--
remove 999 in order to email me
SgtSilicon
2006-06-13 00:47:35 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 19:51:52 -0400, "Scout"
Post by Scout
with anyone that transships my data out of the country. I do not give them
any more information that they are required to have. Indeed NONE of the
above have my SSN. They don't need it, can't require it, and I don't supply
it. Instead I have them issue me a control number which works just as well,
and does NOT give everyone an open inventation to engage in identity theft.
Do you work for a living? You MUST provide your SSN to your employer.
Do you have health insurance? Is it through your employer? Did you
not sign a document authorizing your health insurance the ability to
get such information from your employer?
Post by Scout
So far, I have sued and won settlements against businesses for wrongfully
supplying my data to others. If I really worked at it I could probably
never work another day in my life simply supply this data and then sue them
when they violate privacy acts.
Wow. Now that is something. How many suits? How many wins? Any
national businesses? Which one(s)? See I've done some checking and
guess what...it's perfectly legal for private businesses to share your
SSN with anyone they wish. You'r civil suit victories are of great
interest to me. Please tell us how we might all do this.
Post by Scout
There are only a few organizations that you are legally required to supply
your SSN to and none of those are listed above.
Pretty much any that may have anything to do with your taxes.
Post by Scout
Post by Leythos
about all the ignorant people that didn't know that H&R Block sends the
tax info to India to be entered into forms and then returned to the USA.
All data has the potential to be misused and the information they are
tracking has less potential for causing you problems than your Health
Insurance company data does.
Post by Scout
Now tell me again why I should be happy they are collecting my personal data
for their system?
Because it will be used to identify trends/communications that will lead
to targeting criminal actions, hopefully, before they make a large
impact on this nations people.
You're unreal., You go on and on about H&R block (who doesn't have
arrest powers mind you) but aren't the least bit concerned about the
government's information handling. And that in a climate where they
secretly are arresting people, detaining them for days, weeks, months,
even years without so much as charging them with a crime or even
always making known that they have been detained. God help anyone
innocent who ends up being suspected of aiding terrorism. Terrorism
isn't far off concept wise from "enemy of the state." Know what
happened to many "enemies of the state" in the USSR? All that needed
to happen was for a disgruntled rival businessman or corrupt official
to cast you as a suspected enemy of the state and whoosh.... away you
went. And this was not just a USSR phenomena. Some of you people
need to learn about human nature and history. You truly do not
appreciate the potential for harm.
Scout
2006-06-13 01:27:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by SgtSilicon
On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 19:51:52 -0400, "Scout"
Post by Scout
with anyone that transships my data out of the country. I do not give them
any more information that they are required to have. Indeed NONE of the
above have my SSN. They don't need it, can't require it, and I don't supply
it. Instead I have them issue me a control number which works just as well,
and does NOT give everyone an open inventation to engage in identity theft.
Do you work for a living? You MUST provide your SSN to your employer.
I didn't see employer on his list. Nor does my employer transship my data
out of the country.
Post by SgtSilicon
Do you have health insurance?
Yes, and they do not have my SSN.
Post by SgtSilicon
Is it through your employer?
Yes.
Post by SgtSilicon
Did you
not sign a document authorizing your health insurance the ability to
get such information from your employer?
No, I did not. Further I informed my company that if they supplied this
information without my knowledge and consent then I would be filing both
criminal and civil lawsuits against them.
Post by SgtSilicon
Post by Scout
So far, I have sued and won settlements against businesses for wrongfully
supplying my data to others. If I really worked at it I could probably
never work another day in my life simply supply this data and then sue them
when they violate privacy acts.
Wow. Now that is something. How many suits?
3
Post by SgtSilicon
How many wins?
3
Post by SgtSilicon
Any
national businesses?
Yes.
Post by SgtSilicon
Which one(s)?
Irrelevent.
Post by SgtSilicon
See I've done some checking and
guess what...it's perfectly legal for private businesses to share your
SSN with anyone they wish.
No it's not. Your name/SSN is protected infromation and desimination of it
is a violation of the 1974 Privacy Act and carries criminal penalities and
possibly jail time for offenses.
Post by SgtSilicon
You'r civil suit victories are of great
interest to me. Please tell us how we might all do this.
Easy, feed in specific variations both typographical and transpositition and
when that specific combination reappears then you can establish that they
provided your data to another source and can take action against them. It's
best to have multiple and redundant checks within any particular data so as
to insure that the release can be shown to have come from that one source
and no other.
Post by SgtSilicon
Post by Scout
There are only a few organizations that you are legally required to supply
your SSN to and none of those are listed above.
Pretty much any that may have anything to do with your taxes.
Only so far as they relate to benefits under Social Security. However, since
that is tied to income that does match up pretty closely with taxes.
Post by SgtSilicon
Post by Scout
Post by Leythos
about all the ignorant people that didn't know that H&R Block sends the
tax info to India to be entered into forms and then returned to the USA.
All data has the potential to be misused and the information they are
tracking has less potential for causing you problems than your Health
Insurance company data does.
Post by Scout
Now tell me again why I should be happy they are collecting my personal data
for their system?
Because it will be used to identify trends/communications that will lead
to targeting criminal actions, hopefully, before they make a large
impact on this nations people.
You're unreal., You go on and on about H&R block (who doesn't have
arrest powers mind you) but aren't the least bit concerned about the
government's information handling.
H&R Block doesn't have my data and isn't running around trying to put it
together either.

I will just note this is the tired old claim of "well the other kids were
doing it".

Just because H&R Block is doing it, if they are, doesn't make it right for
someone else to do it also. Doesn't make it right for H&R Block either. So
tell you what. If you can show me solid proof that H&R Block is keeping such
records on file without the consent of their clients then I will be more
than willing to file a class action lawsuit against them for doing so. Care
to show me they are doing this?


Didn't think so.
Leythos
2006-06-13 02:21:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scout
Post by SgtSilicon
Do you have health insurance?
Yes, and they do not have my SSN.
What health insurance company does not require your SSN?
--
***@rrohio.com
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Scout
2006-06-13 09:15:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Leythos
Post by Scout
Post by SgtSilicon
Do you have health insurance?
Yes, and they do not have my SSN.
What health insurance company does not require your SSN?
All of them. Just have them assign you a control number. They do not need
and can not require you to provide them with your SSN.
SgtSilicon
2006-06-13 02:33:13 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 21:27:34 -0400, "Scout"
Post by Scout
Post by SgtSilicon
On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 19:51:52 -0400, "Scout"
Post by Scout
with anyone that transships my data out of the country. I do not give them
any more information that they are required to have. Indeed NONE of the
above have my SSN. They don't need it, can't require it, and I don't supply
it. Instead I have them issue me a control number which works just as well,
and does NOT give everyone an open inventation to engage in identity theft.
Do you work for a living? You MUST provide your SSN to your employer.
I didn't see employer on his list. Nor does my employer transship my data
out of the country.
Post by SgtSilicon
Do you have health insurance?
Yes, and they do not have my SSN.
Post by SgtSilicon
Is it through your employer?
Yes.
Post by SgtSilicon
Did you
not sign a document authorizing your health insurance the ability to
get such information from your employer?
No, I did not. Further I informed my company that if they supplied this
information without my knowledge and consent then I would be filing both
criminal and civil lawsuits against them.
Post by SgtSilicon
Post by Scout
So far, I have sued and won settlements against businesses for wrongfully
supplying my data to others. If I really worked at it I could probably
never work another day in my life simply supply this data and then sue them
when they violate privacy acts.
Wow. Now that is something. How many suits?
3
Post by SgtSilicon
How many wins?
3
Post by SgtSilicon
Any
national businesses?
Yes.
Post by SgtSilicon
Which one(s)?
Irrelevent.
Post by SgtSilicon
See I've done some checking and
guess what...it's perfectly legal for private businesses to share your
SSN with anyone they wish.
No it's not. Your name/SSN is protected infromation and desimination of it
is a violation of the 1974 Privacy Act and carries criminal penalities and
possibly jail time for offenses.
The privacy act of 1974 only restricts GOVERNMENT use of the
information, not those outside of government. You do not know what
you are talking about. Sorry to be so blunt, but you don't.
Scout
2006-06-13 09:21:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by SgtSilicon
On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 21:27:34 -0400, "Scout"
Post by Scout
Post by SgtSilicon
On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 19:51:52 -0400, "Scout"
Post by Scout
with anyone that transships my data out of the country. I do not give them
any more information that they are required to have. Indeed NONE of the
above have my SSN. They don't need it, can't require it, and I don't supply
it. Instead I have them issue me a control number which works just as well,
and does NOT give everyone an open inventation to engage in identity theft.
Do you work for a living? You MUST provide your SSN to your employer.
I didn't see employer on his list. Nor does my employer transship my data
out of the country.
Post by SgtSilicon
Do you have health insurance?
Yes, and they do not have my SSN.
Post by SgtSilicon
Is it through your employer?
Yes.
Post by SgtSilicon
Did you
not sign a document authorizing your health insurance the ability to
get such information from your employer?
No, I did not. Further I informed my company that if they supplied this
information without my knowledge and consent then I would be filing both
criminal and civil lawsuits against them.
Post by SgtSilicon
Post by Scout
So far, I have sued and won settlements against businesses for wrongfully
supplying my data to others. If I really worked at it I could probably
never work another day in my life simply supply this data and then sue them
when they violate privacy acts.
Wow. Now that is something. How many suits?
3
Post by SgtSilicon
How many wins?
3
Post by SgtSilicon
Any
national businesses?
Yes.
Post by SgtSilicon
Which one(s)?
Irrelevent.
Post by SgtSilicon
See I've done some checking and
guess what...it's perfectly legal for private businesses to share your
SSN with anyone they wish.
No it's not. Your name/SSN is protected infromation and desimination of it
is a violation of the 1974 Privacy Act and carries criminal penalities and
possibly jail time for offenses.
The privacy act of 1974 only restricts GOVERNMENT use of the
information, not those outside of government. You do not know what
you are talking about. Sorry to be so blunt, but you don't.
Hmmmm... That's possible, I will check with my attorney and let you know the
specific statute. I do know that it is a violation of federal law to
distribute name/SSN combinations without permission, and have already won
one lawsuit on that issue to the tune of $10,000.
SgtSilicon
2006-06-12 03:49:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
Don't you just love how the apologizers for this illegal activity on
one hand say the accusations are wrong, there is no proof, and it's
all because Bush is hated. Then on the other hand, another apologist
claims not only is it going on, but has been for a long time. You
have to love that camps consistency of truth, NOT.
Clinton and other presidents were already using the ability, publically,
before Bush did. Many Presidents use the same power before it was a law.
Many government agencies used that power without it being law before
Usenet was created....
It would be interesting to see where we would be today without all of it
happening. I would guess we would see many attacks on our soil without
it.
Yes, now then please go correct those who claim that it's all a dirty
lie and accusation made by Bush bathers to try and discredit him.
Why, they already proved most of that - since it was done by Carter,
Clinton and most other presidents (and even before the media was
interested in printing it). I don't dispute that the information is
being collected, in fact, it was being collected long before the media
started in on it, long before Bush was elected (either of them).... I
just don't think most of you whiners actually understand that nothing
has changed, it's been done for a LONG TIME, and the only difference is
that you have a Anti-Bush media trying to make a stink about it. Get it
through your heads, nothing has changed, it's just more public now.
No, there are more differences. Like computerization and the capacity
to store, cross reference and retrieve information.
Yep, and they still don't connect it to "You" unless their algorithms
come up with something that flags you... So that means you can call the
local KFC 1000 times a day and you've got nothing to worry about, but if
you start getting a lot of calls from overseas then you start making a
lot of LD calls when you were never making them before..... They might
want to know YOU at that time, but not before.
And you believe this because..... you are told that? The point is if
they collect the data and compile it and it is attributable to
specific people... then it may be used only when flagged by key words
or patterns etc as you say, OR it could be used for any other reason
that you become the target of someone in the government. That means
if you are a political enemy or rival, a reporter who doesn't wish to
reveal a source, perhaps the new boyfriend of some powerful
politician's ex wife, or perhaps criminal elements need the info and
bribe someone to provide it for them or have someone on the inside.
The list literally goes on and on. The practice of doing this has
dangerous possibilities, that's why things like probable cause,
warrants and the like have been and are supposed to be important
safeguards against these kinds of thing.

To demonstrate my point about the changing technology; a good example
is the fact that an individual took home data on over 26 MILLION
veterans on a device small enough to fit in a briefcase (and that
wasn't even a dent in what the capabilities are). Back when Carter
was in office, things weren;t like that. It IS different.

If you disagree well, then you do, but I consider you a damn fool.
Leythos
2006-06-12 13:00:05 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@nntp.charter.net>, ***@ihatespam.net
says...
Post by SgtSilicon
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
Don't you just love how the apologizers for this illegal activity on
one hand say the accusations are wrong, there is no proof, and it's
all because Bush is hated. Then on the other hand, another apologist
claims not only is it going on, but has been for a long time. You
have to love that camps consistency of truth, NOT.
Clinton and other presidents were already using the ability, publically,
before Bush did. Many Presidents use the same power before it was a law.
Many government agencies used that power without it being law before
Usenet was created....
It would be interesting to see where we would be today without all of it
happening. I would guess we would see many attacks on our soil without
it.
Yes, now then please go correct those who claim that it's all a dirty
lie and accusation made by Bush bathers to try and discredit him.
Why, they already proved most of that - since it was done by Carter,
Clinton and most other presidents (and even before the media was
interested in printing it). I don't dispute that the information is
being collected, in fact, it was being collected long before the media
started in on it, long before Bush was elected (either of them).... I
just don't think most of you whiners actually understand that nothing
has changed, it's been done for a LONG TIME, and the only difference is
that you have a Anti-Bush media trying to make a stink about it. Get it
through your heads, nothing has changed, it's just more public now.
No, there are more differences. Like computerization and the capacity
to store, cross reference and retrieve information.
Yep, and they still don't connect it to "You" unless their algorithms
come up with something that flags you... So that means you can call the
local KFC 1000 times a day and you've got nothing to worry about, but if
you start getting a lot of calls from overseas then you start making a
lot of LD calls when you were never making them before..... They might
want to know YOU at that time, but not before.
And you believe this because..... you are told that? The point is if
they collect the data and compile it and it is attributable to
specific people... then it may be used only when flagged by key words
or patterns etc as you say, OR it could be used for any other reason
that you become the target of someone in the government. That means
if you are a political enemy or rival, a reporter who doesn't wish to
reveal a source, perhaps the new boyfriend of some powerful
politician's ex wife, or perhaps criminal elements need the info and
bribe someone to provide it for them or have someone on the inside.
The list literally goes on and on. The practice of doing this has
dangerous possibilities, that's why things like probable cause,
warrants and the like have been and are supposed to be important
safeguards against these kinds of thing.
And I'm not crazy enough to believe that just because some organization
has a list of numbers and data about those numbers, without names
attached to them, that there is not some chance that someone somewhere
with access to it won't be targeted against the rules. The fact is that
the few abuses by people that should not be using the information
improperly, well, they FAR outweigh the good the list does.

Have you complained to your insurance company (Health, Auto) about their
outsourcing of your medical records to foreign countries where the USA
has no control over those records (laws), how about the people that have
access to your records here in the states - if you really think that the
government has time to target you through this system you need to take
another look at all the people that have access to your other records,
the government has a small database if you look at the others.
Post by SgtSilicon
To demonstrate my point about the changing technology; a good example
is the fact that an individual took home data on over 26 MILLION
veterans on a device small enough to fit in a briefcase (and that
wasn't even a dent in what the capabilities are). Back when Carter
was in office, things weren;t like that. It IS different.
Wrong, I could have done that during the Carter years, and it would have
been easier as the security was a lot more lax in those days. Just look
at all the hard drives that disappeared out of LA in Chinese hands
during the Pre-Bush Presidents.
Post by SgtSilicon
If you disagree well, then you do, but I consider you a damn fool.
That's to bad, as I completely understand the scope and information
being collected and how it will be used, and I understand that
everything is open to abuse, but I'm not paranoid about it. A fool would
be one that doesn't understand, and I clearly do. I consider your types
to be in one of two categories - AntiAmerican/AntiBush Zealots or
Paranoid Loon.
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Scout
2006-06-12 23:46:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Leythos
says...
Post by SgtSilicon
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
Don't you just love how the apologizers for this illegal activity on
one hand say the accusations are wrong, there is no proof, and it's
all because Bush is hated. Then on the other hand, another apologist
claims not only is it going on, but has been for a long time.
You
have to love that camps consistency of truth, NOT.
Clinton and other presidents were already using the ability, publically,
before Bush did. Many Presidents use the same power before it was a law.
Many government agencies used that power without it being law before
Usenet was created....
It would be interesting to see where we would be today without all of it
happening. I would guess we would see many attacks on our soil without
it.
Yes, now then please go correct those who claim that it's all a dirty
lie and accusation made by Bush bathers to try and discredit him.
Why, they already proved most of that - since it was done by Carter,
Clinton and most other presidents (and even before the media was
interested in printing it). I don't dispute that the information is
being collected, in fact, it was being collected long before the media
started in on it, long before Bush was elected (either of them).... I
just don't think most of you whiners actually understand that nothing
has changed, it's been done for a LONG TIME, and the only difference is
that you have a Anti-Bush media trying to make a stink about it. Get it
through your heads, nothing has changed, it's just more public now.
No, there are more differences. Like computerization and the capacity
to store, cross reference and retrieve information.
Yep, and they still don't connect it to "You" unless their algorithms
come up with something that flags you... So that means you can call the
local KFC 1000 times a day and you've got nothing to worry about, but if
you start getting a lot of calls from overseas then you start making a
lot of LD calls when you were never making them before..... They might
want to know YOU at that time, but not before.
And you believe this because..... you are told that? The point is if
they collect the data and compile it and it is attributable to
specific people... then it may be used only when flagged by key words
or patterns etc as you say, OR it could be used for any other reason
that you become the target of someone in the government. That means
if you are a political enemy or rival, a reporter who doesn't wish to
reveal a source, perhaps the new boyfriend of some powerful
politician's ex wife, or perhaps criminal elements need the info and
bribe someone to provide it for them or have someone on the inside.
The list literally goes on and on. The practice of doing this has
dangerous possibilities, that's why things like probable cause,
warrants and the like have been and are supposed to be important
safeguards against these kinds of thing.
And I'm not crazy enough to believe that just because some organization
has a list of numbers and data about those numbers, without names
attached to them, that there is not some chance that someone somewhere
with access to it won't be targeted against the rules. The fact is that
the few abuses by people that should not be using the information
improperly, well, they FAR outweigh the good the list does.
Currently, perhaps that's true, but can you guarantee that will ALWAYS be
the case? i doubt it?

Further what about those individuals to which these bad things happen? Do
you think they care in the least that it only happens to a few people? For
them it doesn't matter if it's 1 or 100,000 the fact is THEY are on the spot
and their lives that are being screwed with as a result?

What do you plan to say to them? Opps, sorry?

I note that doctors do more good than harm, but then they do harm we have
legal recourse and actions we can take against them. What legal action can
we take against the government? Would it be anything like the action 42
Million vets can't take because their information wasn't properly protected?
Oops, sorry?

What happens when they are subjected to identy theif and had their lives and
credit ruining? Shall we seek action against the federal government?

Heck, at least the VA had reasonable cause to have this data. What about
this database where they have no reasonable cause to be collecting this data
at random?


I'm mean it's nice that you tell us that everythings just fine, but
everytime you do an old adage runs through my mind, "The road to hell is
paved with good intentions."

The simple fact is they have NO just cause to randomly collect this data,
you can NOT insure that it won't be misused, abused, subverted, stolen,
hacked, appropriated, or otherwise applied to other purposes entirely. You
have only your "faith" in the nature of government. Well, history has taught
us, at least those who have studied the history of the federal government,
to hold little faith in their good intentions. History indicates time and
time again when seemingly reasonable 'precautions' have been subverted to
another purpose entirely which is or was anything but reasonable.
Post by Leythos
Have you complained to your insurance company (Health, Auto) about their
outsourcing of your medical records to foreign countries where the USA
has no control over those records (laws),
Yes, and I switched insurance companies for that reason.
Post by Leythos
how about the people that have
access to your records here in the states - if you really think that the
government has time to target you through this system you need to take
another look at all the people that have access to your other records,
the government has a small database if you look at the others.
Well, they seem to have the time to collect the data, I don't think it's too
much to think that it won't be at least examined to some extent. Further
certainly people may be SPECIFICALLY targeted for any number of reasons that
have nothing to do with their being terrorists. Maybe they wrote an article
that pissed off some politician? Maybe they went out with the daughter of
one of the database supervisers? The possibility for abuse is endless and
all you have is your "faith".
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
To demonstrate my point about the changing technology; a good example
is the fact that an individual took home data on over 26 MILLION
veterans on a device small enough to fit in a briefcase (and that
wasn't even a dent in what the capabilities are). Back when Carter
was in office, things weren;t like that. It IS different.
Wrong, I could have done that during the Carter years, and it would have
been easier as the security was a lot more lax in those days. Just look
at all the hard drives that disappeared out of LA in Chinese hands
during the Pre-Bush Presidents.
And you don't think that data can be stolen now? Look at all the data about
the vets that just walked out the door of the VA. That by someone that
wasn't even trying to steal the data.
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
If you disagree well, then you do, but I consider you a damn fool.
That's to bad, as I completely understand the scope and information
being collected and how it will be used, and I understand that
everything is open to abuse, but I'm not paranoid about it.
Fine, I'm glad that your glad that you're not paranoid. I, however, have
concerns, legitimate concerns and you have done NOTHING to show me that my
concerns are unfounded, unwarranted, or unsupported. In short, you've said
NOTHING about the issue.
Leythos
2006-06-13 00:25:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scout
Post by Leythos
says...
Post by SgtSilicon
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
Don't you just love how the apologizers for this illegal
activity on
one hand say the accusations are wrong, there is no proof, and it's
all because Bush is hated. Then on the other hand, another
apologist
claims not only is it going on, but has been for a long time.
You
have to love that camps consistency of truth, NOT.
Clinton and other presidents were already using the ability,
publically,
before Bush did. Many Presidents use the same power before it was
a law.
Many government agencies used that power without it being law before
Usenet was created....
It would be interesting to see where we would be today without all
of it
happening. I would guess we would see many attacks on our soil without
it.
Yes, now then please go correct those who claim that it's all a dirty
lie and accusation made by Bush bathers to try and discredit him.
Why, they already proved most of that - since it was done by Carter,
Clinton and most other presidents (and even before the media was
interested in printing it). I don't dispute that the information is
being collected, in fact, it was being collected long before the media
started in on it, long before Bush was elected (either of them).... I
just don't think most of you whiners actually understand that nothing
has changed, it's been done for a LONG TIME, and the only difference is
that you have a Anti-Bush media trying to make a stink about it. Get it
through your heads, nothing has changed, it's just more public now.
No, there are more differences. Like computerization and the capacity
to store, cross reference and retrieve information.
Yep, and they still don't connect it to "You" unless their algorithms
come up with something that flags you... So that means you can call the
local KFC 1000 times a day and you've got nothing to worry about, but if
you start getting a lot of calls from overseas then you start making a
lot of LD calls when you were never making them before..... They might
want to know YOU at that time, but not before.
And you believe this because..... you are told that? The point is if
they collect the data and compile it and it is attributable to
specific people... then it may be used only when flagged by key words
or patterns etc as you say, OR it could be used for any other reason
that you become the target of someone in the government. That means
if you are a political enemy or rival, a reporter who doesn't wish to
reveal a source, perhaps the new boyfriend of some powerful
politician's ex wife, or perhaps criminal elements need the info and
bribe someone to provide it for them or have someone on the inside.
The list literally goes on and on. The practice of doing this has
dangerous possibilities, that's why things like probable cause,
warrants and the like have been and are supposed to be important
safeguards against these kinds of thing.
And I'm not crazy enough to believe that just because some organization
has a list of numbers and data about those numbers, without names
attached to them, that there is not some chance that someone somewhere
with access to it won't be targeted against the rules. The fact is that
the few abuses by people that should not be using the information
improperly, well, they FAR outweigh the good the list does.
Currently, perhaps that's true, but can you guarantee that will ALWAYS be
the case? i doubt it?
Further what about those individuals to which these bad things happen? Do
you think they care in the least that it only happens to a few people? For
them it doesn't matter if it's 1 or 100,000 the fact is THEY are on the spot
and their lives that are being screwed with as a result?
What do you plan to say to them? Opps, sorry?
Yep, that's is, sorry. Since I've not seen anything to indicate that
anyone has wrongly been targeted using this information, I will give
them the benefit of doubt until I hear something to give me real
concern.
Post by Scout
I note that doctors do more good than harm, but then they do harm we have
legal recourse and actions we can take against them. What legal action can
we take against the government? Would it be anything like the action 42
Million vets can't take because their information wasn't properly protected?
Oops, sorry?
I got my note from the VA yesterday, and it appears, from 60 minutes,
that it was some idiot that was using a personal laptop or some other
personal device. Yea, it happens, and not just at the Govt level - but I
don't see you posting FUD about all the other sources.
Post by Scout
What happens when they are subjected to identy theif and had their lives and
credit ruining? Shall we seek action against the federal government?
That would be nice, but it doesn't have anything to do with this, as the
information collected does not identify you personally, so your
telephone logs and cell logs and website actions can't be used to steal
your identity.
Post by Scout
Heck, at least the VA had reasonable cause to have this data. What about
this database where they have no reasonable cause to be collecting this data
at random?
The information they are collecting is nothing like the info that the VA
lost and still has access to.
Post by Scout
I'm mean it's nice that you tell us that everythings just fine, but
everytime you do an old adage runs through my mind, "The road to hell is
paved with good intentions."
So is the road to terrorism and all those that oppose doing anything
about it.
Post by Scout
The simple fact is they have NO just cause to randomly collect this data,
you can NOT insure that it won't be misused, abused, subverted, stolen,
hacked, appropriated, or otherwise applied to other purposes entirely. You
have only your "faith" in the nature of government.
Actually, I have faith in my country, not just the Government, and I
also understand what they are collecting and still don't have any issues
with it. Maybe you should settle down and make a LIST of ALL the
information they are collecting and the exact specifics - once you have
that list you might stop with the FUD crap and get on with your
productive life.
Post by Scout
Well, history has taught
us, at least those who have studied the history of the federal government,
to hold little faith in their good intentions. History indicates time and
time again when seemingly reasonable 'precautions' have been subverted to
another purpose entirely which is or was anything but reasonable.
And history indicates, many times, even before the times of the USA,
that if you sit back while your enemy plots against you and you do
nothing to learn about it, that you are a fool and will be attacked.
Post by Scout
Post by Leythos
Have you complained to your insurance company (Health, Auto) about their
outsourcing of your medical records to foreign countries where the USA
has no control over those records (laws),
Yes, and I switched insurance companies for that reason.
You can't name one single insurance company that doesn't have more
information on you (general people in the country) than you would want,
and certainly all of them have much more detailed information on YOU
than the government does.
Post by Scout
Post by Leythos
how about the people that have
access to your records here in the states - if you really think that the
government has time to target you through this system you need to take
another look at all the people that have access to your other records,
the government has a small database if you look at the others.
Well, they seem to have the time to collect the data, I don't think it's too
much to think that it won't be at least examined to some extent. Further
certainly people may be SPECIFICALLY targeted for any number of reasons that
have nothing to do with their being terrorists. Maybe they wrote an article
that pissed off some politician? Maybe they went out with the daughter of
one of the database supervisers? The possibility for abuse is endless and
all you have is your "faith".
Yes, and so is the possibility that you're reaching out and trying to
cause FUD because you don't have any real clue as to what they are doing
and that your paranoia is just that, paranoia. I've not seen you present
one thing to indicate that the government is abusing your rights, using
the information to harm you, or anything else you say May Happen.

Fact is that anything MAY happen, and if you think the information is
not already available from other sources, then you are sadly delusional.
Post by Scout
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
To demonstrate my point about the changing technology; a good example
is the fact that an individual took home data on over 26 MILLION
veterans on a device small enough to fit in a briefcase (and that
wasn't even a dent in what the capabilities are). Back when Carter
was in office, things weren;t like that. It IS different.
Wrong, I could have done that during the Carter years, and it would have
been easier as the security was a lot more lax in those days. Just look
at all the hard drives that disappeared out of LA in Chinese hands
during the Pre-Bush Presidents.
And you don't think that data can be stolen now? Look at all the data about
the vets that just walked out the door of the VA. That by someone that
wasn't even trying to steal the data.
Yes, I think that any data can be stolen, that's the point. The data
won't contain your personally identifiable information, so while the
trends/connections between ID numbers may be stolen, it still takes
another connection to some other database to connect and ID number with
you.
Post by Scout
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
If you disagree well, then you do, but I consider you a damn fool.
That's to bad, as I completely understand the scope and information
being collected and how it will be used, and I understand that
everything is open to abuse, but I'm not paranoid about it.
Fine, I'm glad that your glad that you're not paranoid. I, however, have
concerns, legitimate concerns and you have done NOTHING to show me that my
concerns are unfounded, unwarranted, or unsupported. In short, you've said
NOTHING about the issue.
And you have not shown me that they are founded, and you have said
nothing that I can see would cause me or any reasonable person to be
concerned.

I can not validate your concerns, and you can't validate them, so what
now? Jump up and down and scream that the Government MAY USE some
information that you don't know what it contains to do something that
you are unsure of, possibly, at some point, or not?
--
***@rrohio.com
remove 999 in order to email me
Scout
2006-06-13 01:13:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Leythos
Post by Scout
Post by Leythos
says...
Post by SgtSilicon
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
Don't you just love how the apologizers for this illegal
activity on
one hand say the accusations are wrong, there is no proof,
and
it's
all because Bush is hated. Then on the other hand, another
apologist
claims not only is it going on, but has been for a long time.
You
have to love that camps consistency of truth, NOT.
Clinton and other presidents were already using the ability,
publically,
before Bush did. Many Presidents use the same power before it was
a law.
Many government agencies used that power without it being law before
Usenet was created....
It would be interesting to see where we would be today without all
of it
happening. I would guess we would see many attacks on our soil
without
it.
Yes, now then please go correct those who claim that it's all a dirty
lie and accusation made by Bush bathers to try and discredit him.
Why, they already proved most of that - since it was done by Carter,
Clinton and most other presidents (and even before the media was
interested in printing it). I don't dispute that the information is
being collected, in fact, it was being collected long before the media
started in on it, long before Bush was elected (either of them).... I
just don't think most of you whiners actually understand that nothing
has changed, it's been done for a LONG TIME, and the only
difference
is
that you have a Anti-Bush media trying to make a stink about it.
Get
it
through your heads, nothing has changed, it's just more public now.
No, there are more differences. Like computerization and the capacity
to store, cross reference and retrieve information.
Yep, and they still don't connect it to "You" unless their algorithms
come up with something that flags you... So that means you can call the
local KFC 1000 times a day and you've got nothing to worry about, but if
you start getting a lot of calls from overseas then you start making a
lot of LD calls when you were never making them before..... They might
want to know YOU at that time, but not before.
And you believe this because..... you are told that? The point is if
they collect the data and compile it and it is attributable to
specific people... then it may be used only when flagged by key words
or patterns etc as you say, OR it could be used for any other reason
that you become the target of someone in the government. That means
if you are a political enemy or rival, a reporter who doesn't wish to
reveal a source, perhaps the new boyfriend of some powerful
politician's ex wife, or perhaps criminal elements need the info and
bribe someone to provide it for them or have someone on the inside.
The list literally goes on and on. The practice of doing this has
dangerous possibilities, that's why things like probable cause,
warrants and the like have been and are supposed to be important
safeguards against these kinds of thing.
And I'm not crazy enough to believe that just because some organization
has a list of numbers and data about those numbers, without names
attached to them, that there is not some chance that someone somewhere
with access to it won't be targeted against the rules. The fact is that
the few abuses by people that should not be using the information
improperly, well, they FAR outweigh the good the list does.
Currently, perhaps that's true, but can you guarantee that will ALWAYS be
the case? i doubt it?
Further what about those individuals to which these bad things happen? Do
you think they care in the least that it only happens to a few people? For
them it doesn't matter if it's 1 or 100,000 the fact is THEY are on the spot
and their lives that are being screwed with as a result?
What do you plan to say to them? Opps, sorry?
Yep, that's is, sorry.
Gee, how nice. Screw up their lives subject them to who knows what, and
you're sorry. Well Gee, that just makes everything right with the world.
Post by Leythos
Since I've not seen anything to indicate that
anyone has wrongly been targeted using this information, I will give
them the benefit of doubt until I hear something to give me real
concern.
I see, so until it's too late you're not going to say anything about the
negative potentials of what they are doing?

Sounds like that comment about the guy who wouldn't protest because it
didn't affect him, until it did and there was no one to do anything about
it.
Post by Leythos
Post by Scout
I note that doctors do more good than harm, but then they do harm we have
legal recourse and actions we can take against them. What legal action can
we take against the government? Would it be anything like the action 42
Million vets can't take because their information wasn't properly protected?
Oops, sorry?
I got my note from the VA yesterday, and it appears, from 60 minutes,
that it was some idiot that was using a personal laptop or some other
personal device.
And, of course, that could NEVER happen with this data because?????

Well, it's different. Is that going to be your claim?
Post by Leythos
Yea, it happens, and not just at the Govt level
I see, so that means I should ignore it, because???
Post by Leythos
- but I
don't see you posting FUD about all the other sources.
They aren't the current topic of discussion. This is.
Post by Leythos
Post by Scout
What happens when they are subjected to identy theif and had their lives and
credit ruining? Shall we seek action against the federal government?
That would be nice, but it doesn't have anything to do with this, as the
information collected does not identify you personally,
Bullshit. If they can't tie that information to you personally then how the
hell do you expect them to tie it to a terrorist?

Do you even think before you spout this bullshit?
Post by Leythos
so your
telephone logs and cell logs and website actions can't be used to steal
your identity.
That's only part of the data, tie that in with ISP registries, personal
information, bank information and all the other stuff that is being linked
up in that database and it most certainly can be used for that. As well as a
lot of other things.
Post by Leythos
Post by Scout
Heck, at least the VA had reasonable cause to have this data. What about
this database where they have no reasonable cause to be collecting this data
at random?
The information they are collecting is nothing like the info that the VA
lost and still has access to.
Sure, because the VA at least only limited themselves to veterns and their
dependents. This new system will target EVERYONE.

Excuse me if I don't get excided over the prospect of everyone's personal
information being subject to theft.
Post by Leythos
Post by Scout
I'm mean it's nice that you tell us that everythings just fine, but
everytime you do an old adage runs through my mind, "The road to hell is
paved with good intentions."
So is the road to terrorism and all those that oppose doing anything
about it.
Sorry, but your opposition to terrorism ends where my rights begin. You want
to oppose terrorism, fine. But if you think that gives you just cause to
violate my rights, then you are sadly mistaken. Indeed the line between you
and the terrorists starts to blurr at that point since you are both willing
to sacrifice innocent people to get your way.
Post by Leythos
Post by Scout
The simple fact is they have NO just cause to randomly collect this data,
you can NOT insure that it won't be misused, abused, subverted, stolen,
hacked, appropriated, or otherwise applied to other purposes entirely. You
have only your "faith" in the nature of government.
Actually, I have faith in my country, not just the Government, and I
also understand what they are collecting and still don't have any issues
with it.
Gee, you have faith. Isn't that nice. So tell me do you approve of every
action our government has engaged in? After all, you have faith, right?
Post by Leythos
Maybe you should settle down and make a LIST of ALL the
information they are collecting and the exact specifics - once you have
that list you might stop with the FUD crap and get on with your
productive life.
I am doing so. I am protesting that data collection. Because it doesn't
matter if it's just the books I check out at the library, they still have NO
cause to collect it. Period. End of Story.
Post by Leythos
Post by Scout
Well, history has taught
us, at least those who have studied the history of the federal government,
to hold little faith in their good intentions. History indicates time and
time again when seemingly reasonable 'precautions' have been subverted to
another purpose entirely which is or was anything but reasonable.
And history indicates, many times, even before the times of the USA,
that if you sit back while your enemy plots against you and you do
nothing to learn about it, that you are a fool and will be attacked.
So we are going to destory our own freedoms rather than risk someone else
doing so?

Sorry, Freedom and it's risks isn't a cross to heavy for me to bear. if you
want safety, then join a police state. If you want freedom however, then you
some risk is inherent. I prefer freedom, and I believe most other people do
as well.
Post by Leythos
Post by Scout
Post by Leythos
Have you complained to your insurance company (Health, Auto) about their
outsourcing of your medical records to foreign countries where the USA
has no control over those records (laws),
Yes, and I switched insurance companies for that reason.
You can't name one single insurance company that doesn't have more
information on you (general people in the country) than you would want,
and certainly all of them have much more detailed information on YOU
than the government does.
Actually the government has the most detailed information on me that any
other organization out there. At least with private companies I can control
what information they have and seek restitution if they fail to secure it.
The government on the other hand doesn't even ask my permission and if
something happens I get nothing but a "sorry" at best.
Post by Leythos
Post by Scout
Post by Leythos
how about the people that have
access to your records here in the states - if you really think that the
government has time to target you through this system you need to take
another look at all the people that have access to your other records,
the government has a small database if you look at the others.
Well, they seem to have the time to collect the data, I don't think it's too
much to think that it won't be at least examined to some extent. Further
certainly people may be SPECIFICALLY targeted for any number of reasons that
have nothing to do with their being terrorists. Maybe they wrote an article
that pissed off some politician? Maybe they went out with the daughter of
one of the database supervisers? The possibility for abuse is endless and
all you have is your "faith".
Yes, and so is the possibility that you're reaching out and trying to
cause FUD because you don't have any real clue as to what they are doing
and that your paranoia is just that, paranoia.
What they are doing is collecting information they have no business
collecting. What more do you think I need to know? I mean you've been all
mysterious about what they are doing with this data but strangely you
haven't been real specific yourself despite your implications of inside
knowledge.
Post by Leythos
I've not seen you present
one thing to indicate that the government is abusing your rights,
Are they, or are they not collecting personal information without just cause
and a warrant?

it's a simple question, with a simple answer, but I suspect it's one you
won't want to answer.
Post by Leythos
using
the information to harm you, or anything else you say May Happen.
So I have to wait until I can prove harm before I can protest a violation of
my rights?

interesting assertion. Support your claim.
Post by Leythos
Fact is that anything MAY happen, and if you think the information is
not already available from other sources, then you are sadly delusional.
True, nothing may happen....or everything. The issue isn't that it has
happened or will, but that it MAY and COULD and all because the government
was involved in something they had no business doing.

Yep, and if those other sources released it to anyone other than the
government at least I could take legal action, but since it's the
government, well that's ok, they are the government and you have FAITH.

Free hint: Con men rely on faith.
Post by Leythos
Post by Scout
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
To demonstrate my point about the changing technology; a good example
is the fact that an individual took home data on over 26 MILLION
veterans on a device small enough to fit in a briefcase (and that
wasn't even a dent in what the capabilities are). Back when Carter
was in office, things weren;t like that. It IS different.
Wrong, I could have done that during the Carter years, and it would have
been easier as the security was a lot more lax in those days. Just look
at all the hard drives that disappeared out of LA in Chinese hands
during the Pre-Bush Presidents.
And you don't think that data can be stolen now? Look at all the data about
the vets that just walked out the door of the VA. That by someone that
wasn't even trying to steal the data.
Yes, I think that any data can be stolen, that's the point. The data
won't contain your personally identifiable information,
Excuse me, but if the data has NO personally identifiable information then
how the hell do you expect to use this data to find terrorists? A physic?
Intuition? A sense of self righteousness?

Sorry, but the data to be of any value MUST be personally identifiable with
the person otherwise all it can do is tell you that a terrorist is other
there. Something we already know by the way.
Leythos
2006-06-13 02:28:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scout
Sorry, but the data to be of any value MUST be personally identifiable with
the person otherwise all it can do is tell you that a terrorist is other
there. Something we already know by the way.
So if I ask company X for all the data on their customers, without their
name, address or any other personal information, then I evaluate the
data, all of it, still not having any personal identification available,
and it gets taken, how does that impact any individual? Hint, it
doesn't.

Now, taken the same data, I ask company X to provide me the
identification of X people identified by ID number, now I can identify
them, before that, I could not identify them.

FUD is what the uninformed feed on.
--
***@rrohio.com
remove 999 in order to email me
SgtSilicon
2006-06-13 02:42:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Leythos
Post by Scout
Sorry, but the data to be of any value MUST be personally identifiable with
the person otherwise all it can do is tell you that a terrorist is other
there. Something we already know by the way.
So if I ask company X for all the data on their customers, without their
name, address or any other personal information, then I evaluate the
data, all of it, still not having any personal identification available,
and it gets taken, how does that impact any individual? Hint, it
doesn't.
Now, taken the same data, I ask company X to provide me the
identification of X people identified by ID number, now I can identify
them, before that, I could not identify them.
FUD is what the uninformed feed on.
They DO know the customers and addresses associated with the phone
numbers. You're a fool if you don't understand that the numbers alone
are next to worthless.
Scout
2006-06-13 09:17:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Leythos
Post by Scout
Sorry, but the data to be of any value MUST be personally identifiable with
the person otherwise all it can do is tell you that a terrorist is other
there. Something we already know by the way.
So if I ask company X for all the data on their customers, without their
name, address or any other personal information, then I evaluate the
data, all of it, still not having any personal identification available,
and it gets taken, how does that impact any individual? Hint, it
doesn't.
Does Company X have their name, address and personal information? You bet
your ass they do. It IS part of the data. It can be accessed. It can be
compromised.

That subsets of this data are produced does not alter the fact that such
information IS part of the full data package and that package is the issue.
SgtSilicon
2006-06-13 00:24:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Leythos
says...
Post by SgtSilicon
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
Don't you just love how the apologizers for this illegal activity on
one hand say the accusations are wrong, there is no proof, and it's
all because Bush is hated. Then on the other hand, another apologist
claims not only is it going on, but has been for a long time. You
have to love that camps consistency of truth, NOT.
Clinton and other presidents were already using the ability, publically,
before Bush did. Many Presidents use the same power before it was a law.
Many government agencies used that power without it being law before
Usenet was created....
It would be interesting to see where we would be today without all of it
happening. I would guess we would see many attacks on our soil without
it.
Yes, now then please go correct those who claim that it's all a dirty
lie and accusation made by Bush bathers to try and discredit him.
Why, they already proved most of that - since it was done by Carter,
Clinton and most other presidents (and even before the media was
interested in printing it). I don't dispute that the information is
being collected, in fact, it was being collected long before the media
started in on it, long before Bush was elected (either of them).... I
just don't think most of you whiners actually understand that nothing
has changed, it's been done for a LONG TIME, and the only difference is
that you have a Anti-Bush media trying to make a stink about it. Get it
through your heads, nothing has changed, it's just more public now.
No, there are more differences. Like computerization and the capacity
to store, cross reference and retrieve information.
Yep, and they still don't connect it to "You" unless their algorithms
come up with something that flags you... So that means you can call the
local KFC 1000 times a day and you've got nothing to worry about, but if
you start getting a lot of calls from overseas then you start making a
lot of LD calls when you were never making them before..... They might
want to know YOU at that time, but not before.
And you believe this because..... you are told that? The point is if
they collect the data and compile it and it is attributable to
specific people... then it may be used only when flagged by key words
or patterns etc as you say, OR it could be used for any other reason
that you become the target of someone in the government. That means
if you are a political enemy or rival, a reporter who doesn't wish to
reveal a source, perhaps the new boyfriend of some powerful
politician's ex wife, or perhaps criminal elements need the info and
bribe someone to provide it for them or have someone on the inside.
The list literally goes on and on. The practice of doing this has
dangerous possibilities, that's why things like probable cause,
warrants and the like have been and are supposed to be important
safeguards against these kinds of thing.
And I'm not crazy enough to believe that just because some organization
has a list of numbers and data about those numbers, without names
attached to them, that there is not some chance that someone somewhere
with access to it won't be targeted against the rules. The fact is that
The identities are attached to the numbers. For sanity's sake man,
they would be nigh useless on the war on terror of there weren't the
easy ability to match name to number, number to name. Think. I could
say more but it really should be obvious. Any politician that says
it's JUST numbers is a LIAR.
Post by Leythos
the few abuses by people that should not be using the information
improperly, well, they FAR outweigh the good the list does.
Sorry, just because you say it doesn;t make it so. Besides, I'm more
worried about what could yet come to pass than current situation.
Post by Leythos
Have you complained to your insurance company (Health, Auto) about their
outsourcing of your medical records to foreign countries where the USA
has no control over those records (laws), how about the people that have
Medical records are protected by HIPAA. The thing is, in the case of
my health insurer at least, they require you to sign a waiver
relieving them of all obligations under HIPAA. If you do not do so,
they will refuse to pay claims. They will not allow you to authorize
for some uses but restrict for others. It's all or nothing. And yes,
I damn sure have complained. The office of the state insurance
commissioner says its's all quite legal for them to do that. Just
goes to show that our government leadership is NOT AT ALL concerned
about protecting the rights of citizens. So it rather supports my
distrust of potential abuse of the surveillance information we have
been discussing.
Post by Leythos
access to your records here in the states - if you really think that the
government has time to target you through this system you need to take
another look at all the people that have access to your other records,
the government has a small database if you look at the others.
Did the part I mentioned about non terrorist ways you can become a
target not sink in for you? It's like it just doesn't register in
your brain. You cannot seem to really understand the idea of the real
potential for abuse, even though history should make the lessons
obvious.
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
To demonstrate my point about the changing technology; a good example
is the fact that an individual took home data on over 26 MILLION
veterans on a device small enough to fit in a briefcase (and that
wasn't even a dent in what the capabilities are). Back when Carter
was in office, things weren;t like that. It IS different.
Wrong, I could have done that during the Carter years, and it would have
LMAO! You just lost any shred of credibility you might have had with
that one. I can already tell you aren't very old, or else have
perceptions about the history of DP equipment that are WAY OFF THE
MARK. Give you a hint. The 1st mainframe I worked with had 4MB of
RAM. The 1st business class computers (such as the IBM PCXT,
introduced shortly AFTER Carter was out of office) had 360KB floppy
drives and NO hard drive at all! When a HDD did come out, it had a
whopping 10MB of storage. Oh yeah, and you wouldn't have been able to
carry all at once let alone stuff it in a briefcase.
Post by Leythos
been easier as the security was a lot more lax in those days.
Do you just pull this stuff out of your ass? Security went down hill
big time in the 90s.
Post by Leythos
Just look
at all the hard drives that disappeared out of LA in Chinese hands
during the Pre-Bush Presidents.
What are you talking about? You mean the national laboratory scandal
with Wen Ho Lee? Yeah, that was bad. I don't make excuses for
Clinton, in fact I was just as upset about a lot of that as I am about
Bush now.
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
If you disagree well, then you do, but I consider you a damn fool.
That's to bad, as I completely understand the scope and information
being collected and how it will be used, and I understand that
everything is open to abuse, but I'm not paranoid about it. A fool would
You aren't even worried about it. You aren't much a student of human
nature and history.
Post by Leythos
be one that doesn't understand, and I clearly do. I consider your types
to be in one of two categories - AntiAmerican/AntiBush Zealots or
Paranoid Loon.
You think you have all the clear understanding... hehe. Okay. We'll
just have to let it set there.
Leythos
2006-06-13 00:38:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by SgtSilicon
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
To demonstrate my point about the changing technology; a good example
is the fact that an individual took home data on over 26 MILLION
veterans on a device small enough to fit in a briefcase (and that
wasn't even a dent in what the capabilities are). Back when Carter
was in office, things weren;t like that. It IS different.
Wrong, I could have done that during the Carter years, and it would have
LMAO! You just lost any shred of credibility you might have had with
that one. I can already tell you aren't very old, or else have
perceptions about the history of DP equipment that are WAY OFF THE
MARK. Give you a hint. The 1st mainframe I worked with had 4MB of
RAM. The 1st business class computers (such as the IBM PCXT,
introduced shortly AFTER Carter was out of office) had 360KB floppy
drives and NO hard drive at all! When a HDD did come out, it had a
whopping 10MB of storage. Oh yeah, and you wouldn't have been able to
carry all at once let alone stuff it in a briefcase.
I'm in my 40's and have been using computers since the early 70's, was
using tape for data in those days, and they would fit in a briefcase
along with cards and other forms of media.

the first computer I ever used, while not a computer by todays
standards, contained 256 words of RAM, the first real computer I
consider using had 4K of RAM and would process a lot of data in those
days....

My understanding of media and computers is 100% on the mark, as I use to
design hardware in my early days.

You still can't show what data is being collected, how they connect it
to anything outside their pattern checking/analysis, and you certainly
have nothing more than Fear to keep you going.
--
***@rrohio.com
remove 999 in order to email me
SgtSilicon
2006-06-13 01:01:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
To demonstrate my point about the changing technology; a good example
is the fact that an individual took home data on over 26 MILLION
veterans on a device small enough to fit in a briefcase (and that
wasn't even a dent in what the capabilities are). Back when Carter
was in office, things weren;t like that. It IS different.
Wrong, I could have done that during the Carter years, and it would have
LMAO! You just lost any shred of credibility you might have had with
that one. I can already tell you aren't very old, or else have
perceptions about the history of DP equipment that are WAY OFF THE
MARK. Give you a hint. The 1st mainframe I worked with had 4MB of
RAM. The 1st business class computers (such as the IBM PCXT,
introduced shortly AFTER Carter was out of office) had 360KB floppy
drives and NO hard drive at all! When a HDD did come out, it had a
whopping 10MB of storage. Oh yeah, and you wouldn't have been able to
carry all at once let alone stuff it in a briefcase.
I'm in my 40's and have been using computers since the early 70's, was
using tape for data in those days, and they would fit in a briefcase
along with cards and other forms of media.
the first computer I ever used, while not a computer by todays
standards, contained 256 words of RAM, the first real computer I
consider using had 4K of RAM and would process a lot of data in those
days....
My understanding of media and computers is 100% on the mark, as I use to
design hardware in my early days.
You still can't show what data is being collected, how they connect it
to anything outside their pattern checking/analysis, and you certainly
have nothing more than Fear to keep you going.
And yet you maintain the position that the technology hasn't really
changed significantly. Okay buddy.
Leythos
2006-06-13 02:23:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by SgtSilicon
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
To demonstrate my point about the changing technology; a good example
is the fact that an individual took home data on over 26 MILLION
veterans on a device small enough to fit in a briefcase (and that
wasn't even a dent in what the capabilities are). Back when Carter
was in office, things weren;t like that. It IS different.
Wrong, I could have done that during the Carter years, and it would have
LMAO! You just lost any shred of credibility you might have had with
that one. I can already tell you aren't very old, or else have
perceptions about the history of DP equipment that are WAY OFF THE
MARK. Give you a hint. The 1st mainframe I worked with had 4MB of
RAM. The 1st business class computers (such as the IBM PCXT,
introduced shortly AFTER Carter was out of office) had 360KB floppy
drives and NO hard drive at all! When a HDD did come out, it had a
whopping 10MB of storage. Oh yeah, and you wouldn't have been able to
carry all at once let alone stuff it in a briefcase.
I'm in my 40's and have been using computers since the early 70's, was
using tape for data in those days, and they would fit in a briefcase
along with cards and other forms of media.
the first computer I ever used, while not a computer by todays
standards, contained 256 words of RAM, the first real computer I
consider using had 4K of RAM and would process a lot of data in those
days....
My understanding of media and computers is 100% on the mark, as I use to
design hardware in my early days.
You still can't show what data is being collected, how they connect it
to anything outside their pattern checking/analysis, and you certainly
have nothing more than Fear to keep you going.
And yet you maintain the position that the technology hasn't really
changed significantly. Okay buddy.
Nice trying to divert from what YOU said - I clearly didn't say that
technology has not changed. You said it wasn't possible back then, and
I've just proven it was.

Stop trolling unless you can do a better job with facts.
--
***@rrohio.com
remove 999 in order to email me
SgtSilicon
2006-06-13 02:52:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
Post by Leythos
Post by SgtSilicon
To demonstrate my point about the changing technology; a good example
is the fact that an individual took home data on over 26 MILLION
veterans on a device small enough to fit in a briefcase (and that
wasn't even a dent in what the capabilities are). Back when Carter
was in office, things weren;t like that. It IS different.
Wrong, I could have done that during the Carter years, and it would have
LMAO! You just lost any shred of credibility you might have had with
that one. I can already tell you aren't very old, or else have
perceptions about the history of DP equipment that are WAY OFF THE
MARK. Give you a hint. The 1st mainframe I worked with had 4MB of
RAM. The 1st business class computers (such as the IBM PCXT,
introduced shortly AFTER Carter was out of office) had 360KB floppy
drives and NO hard drive at all! When a HDD did come out, it had a
whopping 10MB of storage. Oh yeah, and you wouldn't have been able to
carry all at once let alone stuff it in a briefcase.
I'm in my 40's and have been using computers since the early 70's, was
using tape for data in those days, and they would fit in a briefcase
along with cards and other forms of media.
the first computer I ever used, while not a computer by todays
standards, contained 256 words of RAM, the first real computer I
consider using had 4K of RAM and would process a lot of data in those
days....
My understanding of media and computers is 100% on the mark, as I use to
design hardware in my early days.
You still can't show what data is being collected, how they connect it
to anything outside their pattern checking/analysis, and you certainly
have nothing more than Fear to keep you going.
And yet you maintain the position that the technology hasn't really
changed significantly. Okay buddy.
Nice trying to divert from what YOU said - I clearly didn't say that
technology has not changed. You said it wasn't possible back then, and
I've just proven it was.
Stop trolling unless you can do a better job with facts.
My point was that things are different now due to the increase in the
computerizing of records, the increase storage and capturing of data,
and processing capability That the potential for abuse is all the
more significant with these increases. That point stands regardless
of the vet data in a briefcase.

Anyway, You opposed my point by painting a picture that all that vet
data could just as easily gone home with someone back during Carter.
I laugh at that because it couldn't have. I think you might fit three
12" reels in a briefcase. But anyway, you wouldn't have a
refrigerator sized drive (with even bigger price tag) waiting at home
to mount those tapes on (not to mention a computer system to read the
data)! So it wouldn't have happened that the employee would take the
data home to work on back in the Carter era. You lost the main point,
and even the nit picking example.
jonathan
2006-06-15 15:44:19 UTC
Permalink
"Americans are always willing to sell off a few more of their freedoms for
the illusion of safty." -George Carlin

BogusID
2006-06-11 20:16:48 UTC
Permalink
Oh yeah, I'm sure they protect personal information very well, just ask any
of the 42 million vets. How that data ended up on a laptop that left a
government building just speaks of their good judgment and ability to
control such data.

They claim to act in our best interest, but are too incompetent to truly do
so in a consistent long term fashion.
Post by Leythos
Post by Trace
Some of you are chosing party over common sense.
I voted for GW Bush. I am an Ultra Conservative. Yet, I do not
support government compiling databases on Americans without their
expressed permission. Why would you?
I'm not a member of either political party as I don't see where being a
member helps anyone in America.
I have been in the Military, worked in security, been drug tested every
couple months for years, held a high level clearance.....
As a Father, US Citizen, owner of firearms, business owner, I fully
support OUR governments power to track anyone they feel is a security
threat, compile masses of statistics in order to determine trends in
communications that could pinpoint terrorists, monitor anything public,
and to monitor anything private without notification, as long as they
don't go public until they have "evidence" - meaning I don't care if
they read every email, monitor my phones, check my credit, watch my
home/business, as long as they don't get in my way.
In these times, to allow anything less only helps the threat place
itself among our people, often hidden or in open sight, but, because of
the bleeding heart complainers/zealots/foil-hat people, they make the
Job that we've all entrusted our government with all that much harder,
if not also directly tipping off the bad guys that we know something.
--
remove 999 in order to email me
Joseph Welch
2006-06-10 04:21:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Trace
I voted for GW Bush. I am an Ultra Conservative. Yet, I do not
support government compiling databases on Americans without their
expressed permission. Why would you?
Why would an ultra conservative vote for Bush?
--
George W. Bush has made the terrorists stronger, their influence wider,
their numbers larger, and their motivation to attack the U.S. and other
western interests greater. He has repeatedly abused his authority and
violated his Oath of Office by turning his back on the United States
Constitution; thereby surrendering to the terrorists by underminig American
freedoms,values, and the very foundations of our system of government.
Supporting Bush is treason.

***************
JW
***************
"You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have
you left no sense of decency?"
http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/welch-mccarthy.html
Jeff
2006-06-10 04:42:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joseph Welch
--
George W. Bush has made the terrorists stronger, their influence wider,
their numbers larger, and their motivation to attack the U.S. and other
western interests greater. He has repeatedly abused his authority and
violated his Oath of Office by turning his back on the United States
Constitution; thereby surrendering to the terrorists by underminig American
freedoms,values, and the very foundations of our system of government.
Supporting Bush is treason.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Did your mother have any children that lived???

Another crossposting troll
BogusID
2006-06-11 20:37:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joseph Welch
Post by Trace
I voted for GW Bush. I am an Ultra Conservative. Yet, I do not
support government compiling databases on Americans without their
expressed permission. Why would you?
Why would an ultra conservative vote for Bush?
--
George W. Bush has made the terrorists stronger, their influence wider,
their numbers larger, and their motivation to attack the U.S. and other
western interests greater. He has repeatedly abused his authority and
violated his Oath of Office by turning his back on the United States
Constitution; thereby surrendering to the terrorists by underminig
American freedoms,values, and the very foundations of our system of
government. Supporting Bush is treason.
***************
JW
***************
"You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last?
Have you left no sense of decency?"
http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/welch-mccarthy.html
AND we paid the bill, as will our children.
Bert Hyman
2006-06-09 22:02:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Trace
New Scientist has discovered that Pentagon's National Security Agency,
which specialises in eavesdropping and code-breaking, is funding
research into the mass harvesting of the information that people post
about themselves on social networks.
Is reading and analyzing messages posted voluntarily on public forums
actually spying?

If you're seriously worried about that, simply stop posting.

If you can't stop posting, develop another identity and send all your
traffic through anonymizers.
--
Bert Hyman St. Paul, MN ***@iphouse.com
Dave
2006-06-09 22:35:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bert Hyman
If you can't stop posting, develop another identity and send all your
traffic through anonymizers.
You mean like they do in all the other Facist countries?


Dave
Bert Hyman
2006-06-09 23:14:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave
Post by Bert Hyman
If you can't stop posting, develop another identity and send all your
traffic through anonymizers.
You mean like they do in all the other Facist countries?
If you think that's the case, the option is always available to you.
--
Bert Hyman St. Paul, MN ***@iphouse.com
15 years to get Zarqawi
2006-06-09 23:31:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bert Hyman
Post by Dave
Post by Bert Hyman
If you can't stop posting, develop another identity and send all your
traffic through anonymizers.
You mean like they do in all the other Facist countries?
If you think that's the case, the option is always available to you.
Wrong, Hymie. Take away our rights one by one and you have Naziland.
digitalmaster
2006-06-10 00:11:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by 15 years to get Zarqawi
Post by Bert Hyman
Post by Dave
Post by Bert Hyman
If you can't stop posting, develop another identity and send all your
traffic through anonymizers.
You mean like they do in all the other Facist countries?
If you think that's the case, the option is always available to you.
Wrong, Hymie. Take away our rights one by one and you have Naziland.
what right???The right to post info on in a public forum but then not want
certain people to read it???Its kinda like going to a nude beach and saying
only pretty girls can look.
Bert Hyman
2006-06-10 01:13:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by 15 years to get Zarqawi
Wrong, Hymie. Take away our rights one by one and you have Naziland.
Is this something you would personally oppose?
--
Bert Hyman St. Paul, MN ***@iphouse.com
Adam Albright
2006-06-10 01:15:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bert Hyman
Post by 15 years to get Zarqawi
Wrong, Hymie. Take away our rights one by one and you have Naziland.
Is this something you would personally oppose?
What kind of games would they have? Pin the tale on the oval office
monkey?
SaPeIsMa
2006-06-10 01:28:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by 15 years to get Zarqawi
Post by Bert Hyman
Post by Dave
Post by Bert Hyman
If you can't stop posting, develop another identity and send all your
traffic through anonymizers.
You mean like they do in all the other Facist countries?
If you think that's the case, the option is always available to you.
Wrong, Hymie. Take away our rights one by one and you have Naziland.
Which right did they take away ?
Your right to PRIVACY in a PUBLIC forum ?
Don't be daft.
15 years to get Zarqawi
2006-06-10 08:14:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by SaPeIsMa
Post by 15 years to get Zarqawi
Post by Bert Hyman
Post by Dave
Post by Bert Hyman
If you can't stop posting, develop another identity and send all your
traffic through anonymizers.
You mean like they do in all the other Facist countries?
If you think that's the case, the option is always available to you.
Wrong, Hymie. Take away our rights one by one and you have Naziland.
Which right did they take away ?
Your right to PRIVACY in a PUBLIC forum ?
Don't be daft.
Is THAT what you think? You must be a member of Braindead Anonymous.
SaPeIsMa
2006-06-10 19:49:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by 15 years to get Zarqawi
Post by SaPeIsMa
Post by 15 years to get Zarqawi
Post by Bert Hyman
Post by Dave
Post by Bert Hyman
If you can't stop posting, develop another identity and send all your
traffic through anonymizers.
You mean like they do in all the other Facist countries?
If you think that's the case, the option is always available to you.
Wrong, Hymie. Take away our rights one by one and you have Naziland.
Which right did they take away ?
Your right to PRIVACY in a PUBLIC forum ?
Don't be daft.
Is THAT what you think? You must be a member of Braindead Anonymous.
I asked you a question to find out what you're blubbering about

So you're unjable to answer ?
Guess that makes you the idiot troll..
Duncan Williams
2006-06-11 04:27:04 UTC
Permalink
Since when has this genius *ever* told us the truth?
Leythos
2006-06-09 22:58:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Trace
Didn't the President say that the NSA is not spying on us???
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19025556.200?DCMP=NLC-nletter&nsref=mg19025556.200
New Scientist has discovered that Pentagon's National Security Agency,
which specialises in eavesdropping and code-breaking, is funding
research into the mass harvesting of the information that people post
about themselves on social networks. And it could harness advances in
internet technology - specifically the forthcoming "semantic web"
championed by the web standards organisation W3C - to combine data from
social networking websites with details such as banking, retail and
property records, allowing the NSA to build extensive, all-embracing
personal profiles of individuals.
If the information is available, then you have no cause to be alarmed -
they can get the info without any "Spying", and I think that since the
terrorist types are using online forums to communicate with their teams
across the world, that it's about time they started monitoring all of
the web sites too.

The government has always spied on citizens, that's one of the ways it
protects fools like you.
--
***@rrohio.com
remove 999 in order to email me
SgtSilicon
2006-06-09 23:30:46 UTC
Permalink
I don't want that kind of "protection."
Post by Leythos
Post by Trace
Didn't the President say that the NSA is not spying on us???
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19025556.200?DCMP=NLC-nletter&nsref=mg19025556.200
New Scientist has discovered that Pentagon's National Security Agency,
which specialises in eavesdropping and code-breaking, is funding
research into the mass harvesting of the information that people post
about themselves on social networks. And it could harness advances in
internet technology - specifically the forthcoming "semantic web"
championed by the web standards organisation W3C - to combine data from
social networking websites with details such as banking, retail and
property records, allowing the NSA to build extensive, all-embracing
personal profiles of individuals.
If the information is available, then you have no cause to be alarmed -
they can get the info without any "Spying", and I think that since the
terrorist types are using online forums to communicate with their teams
across the world, that it's about time they started monitoring all of
the web sites too.
The government has always spied on citizens, that's one of the ways it
protects fools like you.
Peter Franks
2006-06-09 23:14:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Trace
Didn't the President say that the NSA is not spying on us???
I don't know -- did he? How about researching that and getting back to
us w/ your findings -- please include references/citations.
ThomJeff
2006-06-09 23:46:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Franks
Post by Trace
Didn't the President say that the NSA is not spying on us???
I don't know -- did he?
He certainly and specifically (and unprompted) said that they are not
wiretapping without warrant.
Post by Peter Franks
How about researching that and getting back to
us w/ your findings -- please include references/citations.
To wit:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/04/20040420-2.html

Secondly, there are such things as roving wiretaps. Now, by the way, any
time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, it
requires — a wiretap requires a court order. Nothing has changed, by the
way. When we’re talking about chasing down terrorists, we’re talking
about getting a court order before we do so. It’s important for our
fellow citizens to understand, when you think Patriot Act,
constitutional guarantees are in place when it comes to doing what is
necessary to protect our homeland, because we value the Constitution.

--Bush, April 2004

HTH
SgtSilicon
2006-06-09 23:29:19 UTC
Permalink
Yes. He lied right through his teeth. Don;t seem so surprised
though, it's just another in a growing list of them.
Post by Trace
Didn't the President say that the NSA is not spying on us???
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19025556.200?DCMP=NLC-nletter&nsref=mg19025556.200
New Scientist has discovered that Pentagon's National Security Agency,
which specialises in eavesdropping and code-breaking, is funding
research into the mass harvesting of the information that people post
about themselves on social networks. And it could harness advances in
internet technology - specifically the forthcoming "semantic web"
championed by the web standards organisation W3C - to combine data from
social networking websites with details such as banking, retail and
property records, allowing the NSA to build extensive, all-embracing
personal profiles of individuals.
Jeff
2006-06-10 01:17:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Trace
Didn't the President say that the NSA is not spying on us???
New Scientist has discovered that Pentagon's National Security Agency,
which specialises in eavesdropping and code-breaking, is funding
research into the mass harvesting of the information that people post
about themselves on social networks. And it could harness advances in
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well hell fire dude,, if you post something about yourself
on some dumbass website, it automatically becomes "public" .
Thats not "spying"



J
Salvatore Giomarra
2006-06-10 03:36:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Trace
Didn't the President say that the NSA is not spying on us???
Actually, the president said that you are a cross posting idiot that does
not have the IQ to realize this has nothing to do with gun chat. Imbecile.
^K
--
___________________________________________________________
A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises,
I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it
gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. -- Thomas
Jefferson
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
C.M.German
2006-06-10 11:44:29 UTC
Permalink
The Point Is...................


You missed the entire point of this conversation. If you are honest
with yourself, you know that we are moving away from liberty in this
great country of ours. We are allowing fear to justify the reduction
in liberty, and the advancement of intrusive government.

Amazingly, a number of Americans are willing to trade liberty for
security which as you know, in the end, they will have neither.


Well said by the original poster.
ziggy
2006-06-10 14:25:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by C.M.German
The Point Is...................
You missed the entire point of this conversation. If you are honest
with yourself, you know that we are moving away from liberty in this
great country of ours. We are allowing fear to justify the reduction
in liberty, and the advancement of intrusive government.
Amazingly, a number of Americans are willing to trade liberty for
security which as you know, in the end, they will have neither.
Well said by the original poster.
Regardless of the original poster's correctness or incorrectness, his
post doesn't belong here.

This is a gun group, not a political science group and should be treated
as such.
R Sweeney
2006-06-10 17:40:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Trace
Didn't the President say that the NSA is not spying on us???
Why do you have an expectation of privacy on public posted comments open to
everyone to read?

Spying is when your house is bugged or your mail is opened, listening to
what you scream to the world in public (even here on the usenet) is not
spying.
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